Talk:On-screen kills by Jack Bauer

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Contents 1 Uh oh.. 2 Photographic evidence 3 Kill average 4 Possible mistakes 5 A huge THANK YOU 6 More questions! 7 Breaking the page into sections 8 Screen Shots 9 Ambiguity 10 Abrams? 11 General editing problems and discussion 12 Other stuff 13 Wiki 24 Talk 14 Day 6 15 Day 6 Kill Count 16 Check some description of kills 17 Day 2 - Alex Hewitt 18 DVD Prequels 19 Phillip Bauer 20 Redemption 21 Omar 22 Shootout at 2:00-3:00pm 23 Day 3 dog

[edit] Uh oh..

Number 32 on Day 6, a.k.a 168 overall, a.k.a. Zhou Yong commando #7 from Day 6 3:00am-4:00am does not exist. I've just watched the scene 4 times, there is no one Jack kills in between the guy stood by the grey background and Zhou. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 14:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks like I was crying over split milk. I found one that was missing from the finale, so removed one and added another! --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 14:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Photographic evidence

Hey, if I can get scans for the comics, do you want to include the kills from those or no? It might not come up for a while, but I'm working on it. --StBacchus 18:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about this, and I think it might be good to have a seperate page, which could include comic books and video game characters with names, like Peter Madsen and Max. I was thinking that over the next months, we could finish up the television kills, and add some statistics. Then do a comics/video game page. - Xtreme680 19:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you included comics and games, you'd have to include novels as well, and since this article is little more than an excuse to make a pretty table with pictures of the people Jack has killed, it wouldn't fit. Perhaps a more visually simplistic, yet complete list of Jack's kills (including those mentioned in the past like Drazen wife, daughter and double) would be better. Or, as suggested, we could have separate pages for episodes, comics, games, novels, etc. Either way, this particular article needs to be renamed. It needs to somehow mention the fact that it's on-screen kills from the show. Also, "Kills" needs to not be capitalized. I won't change that because we need to decide on a different name anyway. --Proudhug 23:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like the article, suggest it for deletion. If you don't like the style, suggest a new one or bring up the issue. I see no problem with putting effort into making the page look nice, instead of a huge rundown of names, nor in documenting encyclopedic information that pertains entirely to 24. On-screen kills by Jack Bauer might be a fitting name. While it is believed that Jack Bauer might have killed the Drazen family, we don't have documentation nor proof that this actually happened, it's just what Bauer assumed to have happened, and he's been wrong before considering both Victor Drazen and Stephen Saunders. An article of this nature necessitates pictures, so those belong elsewhere. Since the others belong on a different level of canon, they can have their own pages and they can be fleshed out and discussed by whoever has access to the novels or comics, as I don't. He only has a two kills with names from the game, so we might want to merge that with the comics article so we can continue to have a similar style. I don't know how we can have a novel page with a nice style, but I'm sure we can think of something. - Xtreme680 05:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

According to Jack's summary of Operation Nightfall in the House Subcommittee book, he wasn't actually the person who killed Vesna and Martina. They were killed when someone else on the Delta team blew up the structure they were inside. I believe it's the same in the show.

Generally I'm for integrating as much as possible, but I kind of like the idea of putting the tie-in stuff on a different page - the novels, comics, and games together. This page will be huge enough, and it's a natural enough division. To include kills from the novels, you could preserve the format by using an icon rather than a picture of the kill happening. I could come up with some ideas for that if you like the concept.

This page isn't just a pretty face, it's an alternate method of organizing a body of information. Without it, you'd have to look at the 150+ dead people pages to find out who Jack killed. Proudhug, you might not have a use for this information collected in this way, but that doesn't mean nobody does. If there's a concern about the page being incomplete while it's still under construction, maybe we could fill in all the kills right now and add the pictures later? Or put up a notice that it's a work in progress? Both, maybe? --StBacchus 08:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm in support of a seperate page for novels and game kills. I'd be happy to scan comic books, and write up a list of novel deaths as I read them (although I've been through most now). I will try with the game, but I have no means of getting screencaps. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 09:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The Game poses a huge problem an average player will kill hundreds of people. If these non-TV deaths get recorded, I think they should be on a list page, rather than a gallery page, and include every confirmed kill from Jack, on-screen, off-screen, novel, comic, between days, etc. --Proudhug 17:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, that sounds liek something we could do, as long as we have a few dedicated contributors who will be willing to help out with it. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 17:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to chip in when I get a chance to go through some stuff. We need to set out some strict rules, of course. For instance, the death has to be confirmed and not ambiguous. In the case of The Game, I say only the deaths that are necessary for the completion of the game get included, such as Max. --Proudhug 18:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Definately. Otherwise there could be countless more than necessary that could be included. I'm happy to work through some of the novels, and I have the comics too. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 19:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Kill average

Jack's 200th kill occured in Day 7 9:00am-10:00am, the show's 16th episode. This makes Jack's kill average 1.4 kills per episode for the first 146 episodes.

Redemption is included in the kill count, but not the episode count. Does it count as zero, one or two episodes? --Proudhug 01:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Redemption has legitimate on-screen kills, but it's not an episode of any season. I would think it should be counted as "zero" episodes, or perhaps, a stand-alone episode which isn't counted as part of S6 nor S7? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 01:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If it's not counted as an episode of the series, then a note including it in Jack's kill/episode average is meaningless. --Proudhug 02:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm having trouble understanding. I guess it's just easier to include Redempt as an episode of Season 7 for the purposes of that count? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 02:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

In September 2007, Pyramidhead added a note about Jack's 100th on-screen kill and how he averaged slightly more than one kill per episode over the first hundered episodes. Today, SignorSimon made a similar note, as Jack's now reached 200 kills. Simon included the thirteen Redemption kills in the count, but didn't include it in the episode total. This inflates the average quite a bit, as it's not an accurate calculation. Either this note should be removed, as it's pretty meaningless, or it should be adjusted to make it a proper average. But including Redemption poses as slight problem, as it's a double-length episode. --Proudhug 03:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Possible mistakes

Does anyone know whether there was a third guy killed between 7:54 and 7:55? Maybe in the car? I didn't see another guy. --StBacchus 14:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, during the Day 2 firefight to protect Jonathan Wallace, I only count three guys killed by Jack. Wallace and Yusuf each killed at least one, but I think there are only three for Jack. --StBacchus 19:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, after seeing both firefights, it looks like 3 in the first one and 4 in the second, for a total of 7, although we have 9 listed here and BauerCount has 10 (!). --StBacchus 19:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not confirmed if Jack used a HK SR9T to kill Scott, Peter Kingsley's sniper. How could he have used that if there was no sound of a gunshot? Therefore, I just replaced "HK SR9T" with "unknown".

Yes and judging from the context of that kill, it was probably a broken neck or something. Good work. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 15:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] A huge THANK YOU

On behalf of everyone here, I'd like to extend a big thanks to King Vo Mathis at the 24 Insider, who worked to find the official times of the Jack Bauer kills (and also was able to track down the names of some of the random cronies, like Peel and Rouse, to name a few). Nick N., we all really appreciate the work you put in! Thanks very much! -Kapoli 01:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I second that! The times are so useful for getting pics, and it's awesome just to have them there for reference. Thank you! --StBacchus 12:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More questions!

First, would we like to be able to link to individual kills, the way we can link to individual research files? Second, what verb tense are we using for this page? Sorry about the endless questions, but now that there's time, I'd like to polish this page to a glossy sheen. --StBacchus 08:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be great to link the individual kills on the corresponding character pages, when appropriate. Like the part about Jack killing Nina on Nina's page can link straight to Nina on the chart.... it'd be nice to see that. -Kapoli 01:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, done. For anyone wanting to link directly to a named kill, it's like this: [[On-screen kills by Jack Bauer#NAME]]. Just put in the name exactly as it appears on the chart. The only one I didn't do was the second Scott in Day 2. If that guy's name is also Scott, that makes two Scott (Day 2) and they need further disambiguation. --StBacchus 12:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breaking the page into sections

I think this page's size might be the cause of the disappearing margin problem that Proudhug was having earlier and that I now get every time I preview a full-page edit. Does anyone have a problem with breaking it into smaller pages, like the Research Files page? --StBacchus 13:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea, but I don't think we need the scroll bars like we have there, we can just make the templates, so that if you want to make an edit, you just have to go to the template for that particular day. - Xtreme680 22:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, I agree. I wouldn't want to squish this page at all. Of course, the other way to make the tables way smaller would be to make new classes in the Monobook.css. One of you admin-types should give that some thought. --StBacchus 23:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Screen Shots

My 2 week trial for WinDVD expired and I can't get screenshots. So if someone would want to get some pics of those season 4 kills I added, that would be great. -CWY2190 18:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ambiguity

Wow, some of this can get pretty arbitrary. Rewatching Day 1 11:00am-12:00pm, I checked the van explosion to see which two guys bit it. I see three or four guys go flying when the van exploded. I also saw no reason to assume they were dead, since the weren't actually in the explosion, just near it. They didn't catch on fire, they didn't fall that far. It's hard to ascertain how many people were lying motionless afterwards, but judging by the very beginning of the next episode, there are certainly more than two guys who weren't moving. How should we decide things like this? Certainly lifting it straight from bauercount.com isn't a desirable method. --Proudhug 18:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's arbitrary. The important thing to remember is that this is for fun, so no one should get too worked up about it. When watching the van explosion, I saw two guys flying, per the picture, and only those two guys not moving after it was over, in the same episode. I think the picture spelled it out fairly quickly, with both those guys screaming, and a few seconds later, not moving, while other people that were close were moving. Kevin Caroll was near, but was still alive. Since it is only on-screen kills, I did not include other people lying on the ground, and other people flying off camera. While it can be ambiguous, I say we err on caution, and if a kill is disputed, we take it off. No one can feel that strongly about including some dead dude from a van explosion. - Xtreme680 02:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. But you don't see three guys flying in that picture (possibly four if you include the foot on the far right)? I guess his one leg is still on the ground, so he's technically not flying, but there'd be no reason to assume he was any less hurt than the other two guys. But since this article isn't a serious reference page, it really doesn't matter.

Alos, since the page isn't a count of the deaths, why not just combine the two guys into one field and put "Gaines terrorists" instead. This not only clears up any abiguity about number (though not about whether or not death occurred, I guess), but it also eliminates the unnecessary inclusion of two or more fields that are exactly the same. --Proudhug 02:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

How's about this. We change the second picture to show the two guys not getting up, because I'm almost certain the third guy does. The man with the leg was never shown flying, and we never see the man laying on the ground get shot by Jack Bauer. The man to the far left is Kevin Caroll. I'll rewatch the episode and see if I remember things correctly. But I do want to keep them seperated, so we can keep a proper count and make sure all the kills are accounted for. - Xtreme680 02:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, either this is a count or it isn't. Since the kills aren't numbered, I assumed it was just a visual document of on-screen kills, not a count of them. --Proudhug 02:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Since it's not done, it would be silly to have to keep changing the numbers around while we add new kills - Xtreme680 02:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing that i feel is wrong is the Ted Coffel Kill. Jack may have punched him, but it was Ted's choice to die by refusing to take the pills. I feel as though that is not a Kill by jack bauer, but rather a suicide. Other wise, why not count the man who popped the Cyonide into hiss mouth on Day 2 when jack pointed a gun at him?

[edit] Abrams?

I didn't know how to spell Ibrim, but I'm almost positive it isn't Abrams. Does anyone have a source for this name? --StBacchus 15:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

After a review of that scene, my closed-captioning notes his name as "Ibram". -Kapoli 15:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General editing problems and discussion

What am I doing wrong for day 4? the table doesn't take up the whole screen. -CWY2190 12:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I had that same problem. Surely there's some smart way to fix it, but they way I did it was writing more text in the description box. As long as the text in the description box of at least one of the cells takes up more than one line, the table will look right. -StBacchus 18:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Aha, I fixed it. SMRT! The table wasn't set to width 100%. Anyway, it should work fine no matter how much text there is now. -StBacchus 19:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

This page is looking good... the funniest one so far is Ted Cofell: "Cause of death - punch to the heart." Ah, only Jack.

And I've lent out my Season 2 DVD, so I can't do this myself, but can someone add the guy who dies in Season 2 after Jack shoots him with a flare gun? His plane crashes and he and Nina wait for CTU's search and rescue team, but the other group gets there first to kill them... know what I mean? Anyway, if anyone is bored and wants to put that one up, that would make my day! --Kapoli 23:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it looks good. I'm definetely not done with the Season 2 or Season 3 sections, but I have been really busy trying to set up my new wikia, so I will do that within the next week. I have all the pictures I need, I just need more time in the day. - Xtreme680 00:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

So then, is there anything else you need? I figured I'd just throw 'em in when I came across 'em, but if you've already got a bunch lined up, there's no point in repeating your work. -StBacchus 09:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone put in the Season 5 kills? He killed Haas, I think he took out a couple at the natural gas plant. He took out at least 4 when Evelyn Martin meet with Henderson. There are also others I can't think of. -CWY2190 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, got Haas and the four Beresch minions Jack killed. Of course there's a boatload more this season. Also, I have no idea if that's really how you spell Ibrim. -StBacchus 16:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I've just been working on Season 2 and Season 3, so you guys can continue working on 4 and 5 if you wish, you're doing an excellent job. - Xtreme680 22:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other stuff

I'm going to keep working on this, but I am going to need people's help in editing and discussion. For right now, what constitues a kill is that Jack does the killing. Paul Raines is not a kill, but Ryan Chappelle is. While Jack's actions may have killed Paul, he didn't mean to kill him, and he was not the person who shot him. However, Jack pulled the trigger on Ryan. If you disagree with a kill, mention it here. I will also be putting the context of the kill and pictures up over the next few days. - Xtreme680

I disagree with the take on Paul. Jack may not have meant to kill him, but "unintended and unwanted kills are also included for sake of completeness." Also, he may not have shot him, but if Jack had not interfered, Paul might have survived Conlon's shot. It took a while for him to die, so I'd say both Jack and Conlon were responsible. OneWeirdDude 23:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a pretty slippery slope. If everyone who wouldn't have died if Jack hadn't done something was considered an "unintentional kill", about half the deaths on the show would be considered his kills. For example, if Jack hadn't rigged the safe room, Bill Buchanan wouldn't be dead. If Jack hadn't told Alexis Drazen's girlfriend about him, Alexis Drazen wouldn't be dead, and so forth. Raines died because Conlon shot him. Jack didn't kill him. He just prevented him from being saved. The title says "unintended kills" not "unintended links in a causal chain leading to the prevention of a prevention of a death". (128.100.247.62 19:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC))

[edit] Wiki 24 Talk

This may be the ultimate piece of fanboyness, but I was thinking we could have a page, similar to the episode guide lists, where we list the kills Jack Bauer has had over the course of the seasons. It could be divided into sections by season, but I'd prefer it to be one full page. It could be Picture|Name|Episode|Method, which would be a great way to also link to the weapons we have articles for. There are several sites available where we can access the information, so the main work would be going through the episodes for the picture and the editing process. I'm posting this here because
1. I want to know if the administrators think it's a good idea.
2. I'm going to need some help
3. This is going to need discussion. We need to decide what constitutes a kill(Some people are going to die anyway, like Raymond O'Hara in Season 2, plus people like Ryan Chapelle, Habib Marwan, and Paul Raines might be tricky, whether Jack killed them or injured them (he doesn't exactly check their pulse every time), whether Jack killed someone or someone else did (we don't see the trajectory of every bullet). Also, we need to decide what information is relevant. Get back to me, I've done so much tweaking and so much adding of characters no one remembers, that you are probably sick of seeing my name on the recent changes list, but I'm just trying to improve the site. - Xtreme680

I love your idea. In fact, how about a complete encyclopedia of death? There are two people I know of that are keeping track of Jack's specifically: [1] and [2]. That first link goes to a forum thread that also contains a complete body count for season 5. Cinemorgue has also got quite a few. Wiki 24 has the best total list, but it could be better. I think it would be very useful to have a complete list of deadies (and not just because it will help me write fanfiction, LOL).

I would like to see one page for each season, with a table like you suggested, with each row alternating colors (say, between black and gray) to make it easier to read. I like your headings, and I like your idea of integrating the weapons pages. So maybe instead of Method, it could read Weapon - or keep Method and have that column list whether it was a murder or suicide. Since these are all going to be small columns, there could also be a Description column for those deaths that require a little 'splaining. What do you think, sirs? Xtreme680, is all this too far from your original line of thought? -StBacchus 14 April 2006

I was inspired by [3], because that page looks similar to our episode pages, but we would be able to do it better.

I had no plans to make encyclopedia of death, but now that you mention it, couldn't we have both the encyclopedia of death and the Bauer kill count? On the Bauer kill count page, we could have Method, which i think is important because sometimes Jack blows up cars or snaps peoples necks. On the encyclopedia of death, we can have Cause and Killer. On cause, we can put things like suicide, shotgun blast, broken neck, and on killer we can put who killed them. The Bauer Kill Count page can have Picture|Name|Episode|Method and the encyclopedia will bePicture|Name|Episode|Cause|Killer. As for the descriptions, that's why this setup works so well. We can describe the death in the area between pictures, just like in the episode guides. - Xtreme680

Yeah, this IS totally fanboyish. While I don't think it's an inappropriate project, I personally don't see much point to it. We've already got categories such as "Deceased characters" for stuff like that, and besides it seems to me there's way too much ambiguity to much of it, as you pointed out. But feel free to give it a shot if you want. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. --Proudhug 17:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think those are problems that we can't fix. For one, we won't call the article "Jack Bauer kill count". We'd call it, Deaths caused by Jack Bauer, or Confirmed Kills by Jack Bauer, or something to that nature. This makes it sound more official. We do have deceased character categories, but this is something to improve the quality of the articles beyond the simple category pages. As for the ambiguity, well, thats why we have discussion pages. Besides, if there is one thing that will attract new users and be a cool front page article, it will be this. - Xtreme680

For Day 3, please add to the list, Arthur Rabens (12:00pm-1:00pm). - Risico

[edit] Day 6

What about the terrorist that was shoved from the speeding train by Jack in Episode 2?

Jack didn't kill him, his own bomb did.--Vinny2 02:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

While I agree this is true, there is a practical issue of semantics as far as what "causes" a person's death. If we get TOO literal, we can make the argument that everyone that died at barrel of Jack's Gun were killed by the bullet and not Jack. I say that if Jack's direct involvement results in someone dying, Jack should be credited for the kill. In this case, I think Jack should be credited for Marwan's death. Granted Marwan cut Jack's hand to ultimately cause his own fall and death, but Jack was the one who dropped him. The same goes for Paul Raines. If Jack hadn't entered the operating room, Paul would be alive.

That's just silly. If Jack never carried out Operation Nightfall, Teri would still be alive. Should Teri be added to the list? Jack was not responsible for the terrorist dying in the subway. Jack was trying to stop him from dying. He would've died even if Jack hadn't been there. All Jack's actions did was prevent other people from dying. Just because Jack didn't prevent someone from dying doesn't mean he caused their death. --Proudhug 01:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Day 6 Kill Count

I think someone should finish it, I might even do it. Tony Almeida 24 11:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't let us stop you. I'd do it, but I don't have the DVDs. OneWeirdDude 23:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Check some description of kills

I added pictures and some comments to OSK #142 to #147.

Can you check the grammar/spelling please and fix the description if they do not match the rules/standard.

I also moved the name 'Victor' from OSK #146 to OSK #147. Beause Victor was shot at the end of Day 6 7:00pm-8:00pm but died at 3 minutes and 10 secondes of Day 6 8:00pm-9:00pm.

OSK #146 was only some unammed terrorist.

[edit] Day 2 - Alex Hewitt

Should Alex Hewitt (Day 2) be counted? Its a while since I've seen it but wasn't it Jacks shot to his leg that caused his fall from the roof - which in turn caused the head injuries that killed him? An unintended death - but should it be included for the sake of completeness? (194.221.215.245 12:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC))

That's a tough one. If I were you, I'd add it and see if anyone takes issue (this is generally how Wikis work). I believe your idea about Hewitt is a reasonable kill to count, so you will not get opposition from me. More support for your idea: the maintainer of the Bauercount pages said in one of his comments that they plan on adding Hewitt. Post it and see what happens, or respond here and I can do it for you. - Blue Rook 05:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC) _talkcontribs

[edit] DVD Prequels

Should kills from the DVD prequels be listed? Jack killed the driver of the car chasing him in the Season 5 Prequel by making the car slam into a forklift, impaling the driver. Jol123 08:52, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'd include that directly onto the page, that is, not within one of the transcluded templates. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 15:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phillip Bauer

Did he kill Phillip? He did have the chance to save his life, but he didn't. Snsean11 07:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I definitely don't believe that counts for a kill. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 11:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Neither do I. Josh shot him, making it difficult-to-impossible to escape the bombers and the missiles destroyed the oil rig; Jack, meanwhile, tried to save Philip, but he resisted his son's efforts, similar to Sherry Palmer resisted Julia Milliken's efforts to save her husband's life. OneWeirdDude 23:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redemption

Is Redemption part of Day 7? Then it should be changed to "Day 7". If not, I think the redundant "episode number" column should be removed. OneWeirdDude 00:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Redemption is the prequel to Day 7. I don't see what's wrong with the column? It speaks the truth, doesn't it? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 00:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Omar

Should Omar be added up here? I think Jack killed him before the Marines took him down, and I remember reading somewhere that the knife he threw hit him in the throat.

Ggjk 02:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I though he was hit in the chest. Besides, personally I'm not sure what to think, since the Marines seemed to have finished Omar off after Jack threw the knife. -- Matthew R Dunn 02:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Shootout at 2:00-3:00pm

How are you people dealing with Jack kills in the shootout with Dubaku's men? I counted 6 kills by Jack. Thief12 02:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Day 3 dog

Why is Joseph Walds dog not listed as a kill in this list?