Talk: On-screen kills by Jack Bauer

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S8E13 3 kills?

I've just noticed the current list mentions 2 kills in this episode. However, during the scene where Jack engages the hostiles in a firefight it seems as he takes down 2 enemies instead of one-the first goes down right after he's hit in the vest and the second one is shown after Jack's already down.What makes me think these are two kills is that he aims in a different direction after taking down the first one.Now I watched closely the scene several times and Jack engages 3 people-Ali, the one who's shown as killed and somebody above who isn't shown anymore.So assuming that after Renee takes out Ali and the guy who Cole engages in a fight it leaves that person who was above, so unless Jack killed him it sorta leaves a ghost in the field who just desappears after the firefight. The way I see it-the guy above managed to reach the ground by the time he got killed. Any ideas?

Uh oh..

Number 32 on Day 6, a.k.a 168 overall, a.k.a. Zhou Yong commando #7 from Day 6 3:00am-4:00am does not exist. I've just watched the scene 4 times, there is no one Jack kills in between the guy stood by the grey background and Zhou. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 14:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks like I was crying over split milk. I found one that was missing from the finale, so removed one and added another! --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 14:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Photographic evidence

Hey, if I can get scans for the comics, do you want to include the kills from those or no? It might not come up for a while, but I'm working on it. --StBacchus 18:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about this, and I think it might be good to have a seperate page, which could include comic books and video game characters with names, like Peter Madsen and Max. I was thinking that over the next months, we could finish up the television kills, and add some statistics. Then do a comics/video game page. - Xtreme680 19:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you included comics and games, you'd have to include novels as well, and since this article is little more than an excuse to make a pretty table with pictures of the people Jack has killed, it wouldn't fit. Perhaps a more visually simplistic, yet complete list of Jack's kills (including those mentioned in the past like Drazen wife, daughter and double) would be better. Or, as suggested, we could have separate pages for episodes, comics, games, novels, etc. Either way, this particular article needs to be renamed. It needs to somehow mention the fact that it's on-screen kills from the show. Also, "Kills" needs to not be capitalized. I won't change that because we need to decide on a different name anyway. --Proudhug 23:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like the article, suggest it for deletion. If you don't like the style, suggest a new one or bring up the issue. I see no problem with putting effort into making the page look nice, instead of a huge rundown of names, nor in documenting encyclopedic information that pertains entirely to 24. On-screen kills by Jack Bauer might be a fitting name. While it is believed that Jack Bauer might have killed the Drazen family, we don't have documentation nor proof that this actually happened, it's just what Bauer assumed to have happened, and he's been wrong before considering both Victor Drazen and Stephen Saunders. An article of this nature necessitates pictures, so those belong elsewhere. Since the others belong on a different level of canon, they can have their own pages and they can be fleshed out and discussed by whoever has access to the novels or comics, as I don't. He only has a two kills with names from the game, so we might want to merge that with the comics article so we can continue to have a similar style. I don't know how we can have a novel page with a nice style, but I'm sure we can think of something. - Xtreme680 05:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

According to Jack's summary of Operation Nightfall in the House Subcommittee book, he wasn't actually the person who killed Vesna and Martina. They were killed when someone else on the Delta team blew up the structure they were inside. I believe it's the same in the show.

Generally I'm for integrating as much as possible, but I kind of like the idea of putting the tie-in stuff on a different page - the novels, comics, and games together. This page will be huge enough, and it's a natural enough division. To include kills from the novels, you could preserve the format by using an icon rather than a picture of the kill happening. I could come up with some ideas for that if you like the concept.

This page isn't just a pretty face, it's an alternate method of organizing a body of information. Without it, you'd have to look at the 150+ dead people pages to find out who Jack killed. Proudhug, you might not have a use for this information collected in this way, but that doesn't mean nobody does. If there's a concern about the page being incomplete while it's still under construction, maybe we could fill in all the kills right now and add the pictures later? Or put up a notice that it's a work in progress? Both, maybe? --StBacchus 08:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm in support of a seperate page for novels and game kills. I'd be happy to scan comic books, and write up a list of novel deaths as I read them (although I've been through most now). I will try with the game, but I have no means of getting screencaps. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 09:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The Game poses a huge problem an average player will kill hundreds of people. If these non-TV deaths get recorded, I think they should be on a list page, rather than a gallery page, and include every confirmed kill from Jack, on-screen, off-screen, novel, comic, between days, etc. --Proudhug 17:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, that sounds liek something we could do, as long as we have a few dedicated contributors who will be willing to help out with it. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 17:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to chip in when I get a chance to go through some stuff. We need to set out some strict rules, of course. For instance, the death has to be confirmed and not ambiguous. In the case of The Game, I say only the deaths that are necessary for the completion of the game get included, such as Max. --Proudhug 18:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Definately. Otherwise there could be countless more than necessary that could be included. I'm happy to work through some of the novels, and I have the comics too. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 19:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

After watching a walkthrough of 24:The Game, here are the final numbers: 24: THE GAME:

Jack Bauer Kills 496 (Knocks-Out 2) Tony Almeida Kills 149 Chase Edmunds Kills 115 (He knocks out 5 guys including pistol-whipping one in a cinematic sequence) Michelle Dessler Kills 25 Peter Madsen (Christian Kane) Kills 5 Kim Bauer Kills 1 (You can kill some guards in her first mission but it's near impossible to complete it if you do so it's not counted) Mandy kills 1 Max (Thomas Kretshmann), Aaron Pierce, David Palmer, Kate Warner, Chloe O'Brien, Sid Wilson (Tom Sizemore), Nina Myers, Adam Kaufman & Agent Baker All Kill 0

Kill average

Jack's 200th kill occured in Day 7 9:00am-10:00am, the show's 16th episode. This makes Jack's kill average 1.4 kills per episode for the first 146 episodes.

Redemption is included in the kill count, but not the episode count. Does it count as zero, one or two episodes? --Proudhug 01:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Redemption has legitimate on-screen kills, but it's not an episode of any season. I would think it should be counted as "zero" episodes, or perhaps, a stand-alone episode which isn't counted as part of S6 nor S7? Blue Rook talk contribs 01:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If it's not counted as an episode of the series, then a note including it in Jack's kill/episode average is meaningless. --Proudhug 02:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm having trouble understanding. I guess it's just easier to include Redempt as an episode of Season 7 for the purposes of that count? Blue Rook talk contribs 02:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

In September 2007, Pyramidhead added a note about Jack's 100th on-screen kill and how he averaged slightly more than one kill per episode over the first hundered episodes. Today, SignorSimon made a similar note, as Jack's now reached 200 kills. Simon included the thirteen Redemption kills in the count, but didn't include it in the episode total. This inflates the average quite a bit, as it's not an accurate calculation. Either this note should be removed, as it's pretty meaningless, or it should be adjusted to make it a proper average. But including Redemption poses as slight problem, as it's a double-length episode. --Proudhug 03:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Possible mistakes

Does anyone know whether there was a third guy killed between 7:54 and 7:55? Maybe in the car? I didn't see another guy. --StBacchus 14:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, during the Day 2 firefight to protect Jonathan Wallace, I only count three guys killed by Jack. Wallace and Yusuf each killed at least one, but I think there are only three for Jack. --StBacchus 19:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, after seeing both firefights, it looks like 3 in the first one and 4 in the second, for a total of 7, although we have 9 listed here and BauerCount has 10 (!). --StBacchus 19:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not confirmed if Jack used a HK SR9T to kill Scott, Peter Kingsley's sniper. How could he have used that if there was no sound of a gunshot? Therefore, I just replaced "HK SR9T" with "unknown".

Yes and judging from the context of that kill, it was probably a broken neck or something. Good work. Blue Rook talk contribs 15:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

In response to StBacchus's very old posts above, I re-watched the Day 2 gunfight and sort of agree with her. There is one kill in the list which I wouldn't describe as being "confirmed" by video evidence:

Kill number 22 (#12 in Day 2) - There are lots of sparks of bullets hitting the metal fire escape, and the man seems to just duck away. Later, a man who looks to be in exactly the same position is killed by Yusuf. Now as the man ducks away after getting shot at by Jack, he continues to fire his gun into the air, which is standard "movie guy death". But he could have continued firing as he ducked away, and we definitely don't see him fall to the ground. He does have an expression of pain on his face though.--Acer4666 19:08, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

He definitely falls to the ground. It's hard to see through all the smoke, but I rewatched the scene many times and I cna tell you that he dies and falls. --ASHPD24 19:27, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

He falls back, out of sight, but not down--Acer4666 19:34, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like he falls down and hits the metal railing. And remember, there's often times in movies and such when the same person or shot is reused to give the appearance of more people. And plus, I'm not so sure he could've survived that barrage of gunfire. --ASHPD24 19:36, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

The sound effects are just bullets hitting metal, they give no indication. I know stuntmen are reused, but it's the same positioning on the stairwell as the guy Yusuf shoots (I think). And it's a different camera shot, not a re-used one. As for people surviving amounts of gunfire, I think if the scene followed that logic Jack, Kate, Wallace and Yusuf would probably all be dead.

The fact of it seems to be - we don't see what happens to the guy after he disappears from view. He has a look of pain on his face, he's shooting up in the air, but he just moves back behind a wall. I wouldn't call it a confirmed kill--Acer4666 19:41, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

No, I hear the sound of a body hitting the metal. --ASHPD24 19:47, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Well even if you are able to identify that particular sound, it doesn't prove anything as there is a giant gunfight going on all around the place so it could be another man dying off-screen.

However having gone through the shot frame by frame too many times for my own good, it seems as though there are some plastic curtains behind him that the guy starts to fall through. It does seem as though he recoils as if hit by something, which is as much evidence as some of the other guys in that firefight. I think the camera doesn't quite catch his flip back when hit, so all you really see is him moving backwards, but the expression on his face and what little I see of his movement before the camera zooms in indicates to me he was hit by a bullet as opposed to flinching away from the gunfire.--Acer4666 19:52, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'm amazed that you can make out his face through all that smoke. --ASHPD24 20:12, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, are we talking about the same guy? I'm on about one of the four kills in the first 2 minutes of the episode, they haven't done smoke bombs yet. I think I know the one you're talking about, it's in the second gunfight, and I also didn't quite buy that one till I did a frame by frame and saw him get hit--Acer4666 20:14, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Ah I know which one you're talking about. They're both hard to tell, but the answer is simple - if you got shot by Jack, I don't think you'd survive. --ASHPD24 20:28, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

A huge THANK YOU

On behalf of everyone here, I'd like to extend a big thanks to King Vo Mathis at the 24 Insider, who worked to find the official times of the Jack Bauer kills (and also was able to track down the names of some of the random cronies, like Peel and Rouse, to name a few). Nick N., we all really appreciate the work you put in! Thanks very much! -Kapoli 01:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I second that! The times are so useful for getting pics, and it's awesome just to have them there for reference. Thank you! --StBacchus 12:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Breaking the page into sections

I think this page's size might be the cause of the disappearing margin problem that Proudhug was having earlier and that I now get every time I preview a full-page edit. Does anyone have a problem with breaking it into smaller pages, like the Research Files page? --StBacchus 13:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea, but I don't think we need the scroll bars like we have there, we can just make the templates, so that if you want to make an edit, you just have to go to the template for that particular day. - Xtreme680 22:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, I agree. I wouldn't want to squish this page at all. Of course, the other way to make the tables way smaller would be to make new classes in the Monobook.css. One of you admin-types should give that some thought. --StBacchus 23:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Screen Shots

My 2 week trial for WinDVD expired and I can't get screenshots. So if someone would want to get some pics of those season 4 kills I added, that would be great. -CWY2190 18:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity

Wow, some of this can get pretty arbitrary. Rewatching Day 1 11:00am-12:00pm, I checked the van explosion to see which two guys bit it. I see three or four guys go flying when the van exploded. I also saw no reason to assume they were dead, since the weren't actually in the explosion, just near it. They didn't catch on fire, they didn't fall that far. It's hard to ascertain how many people were lying motionless afterwards, but judging by the very beginning of the next episode, there are certainly more than two guys who weren't moving. How should we decide things like this? Certainly lifting it straight from bauercount.com isn't a desirable method. --Proudhug 18:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's arbitrary. The important thing to remember is that this is for fun, so no one should get too worked up about it. When watching the van explosion, I saw two guys flying, per the picture, and only those two guys not moving after it was over, in the same episode. I think the picture spelled it out fairly quickly, with both those guys screaming, and a few seconds later, not moving, while other people that were close were moving. Kevin Caroll was near, but was still alive. Since it is only on-screen kills, I did not include other people lying on the ground, and other people flying off camera. While it can be ambiguous, I say we err on caution, and if a kill is disputed, we take it off. No one can feel that strongly about including some dead dude from a van explosion. - Xtreme680 02:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. But you don't see three guys flying in that picture (possibly four if you include the foot on the far right)? I guess his one leg is still on the ground, so he's technically not flying, but there'd be no reason to assume he was any less hurt than the other two guys. But since this article isn't a serious reference page, it really doesn't matter.

Alos, since the page isn't a count of the deaths, why not just combine the two guys into one field and put "Gaines terrorists" instead. This not only clears up any abiguity about number (though not about whether or not death occurred, I guess), but it also eliminates the unnecessary inclusion of two or more fields that are exactly the same. --Proudhug 02:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

How's about this. We change the second picture to show the two guys not getting up, because I'm almost certain the third guy does. The man with the leg was never shown flying, and we never see the man laying on the ground get shot by Jack Bauer. The man to the far left is Kevin Caroll. I'll rewatch the episode and see if I remember things correctly. But I do want to keep them seperated, so we can keep a proper count and make sure all the kills are accounted for. - Xtreme680 02:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, either this is a count or it isn't. Since the kills aren't numbered, I assumed it was just a visual document of on-screen kills, not a count of them. --Proudhug 02:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Since it's not done, it would be silly to have to keep changing the numbers around while we add new kills - Xtreme680 02:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing that i feel is wrong is the Ted Coffel Kill. Jack may have punched him, but it was Ted's choice to die by refusing to take the pills. I feel as though that is not a Kill by jack bauer, but rather a suicide. Other wise, why not count the man who popped the Cyonide into hiss mouth on Day 2 when jack pointed a gun at him?

I know this is an ancient discussion, but for the sake of anyone reading through this, I thought I'd point out that there definitely isn't any ambiguity about the two men killed by the van explosion in Day 1: 11:00am-12:00pm. There are six people shooting at Jack at the end of the episode: Ira Gaines, Kevin Carroll, Neil Nagi, then later a long-haired guy and two more, this guy and this guy. When the van blows up, the two "dead blokeys" I mentioned last were next to it, whereas long hair guy and neil dived away (the "leg" you can see in the pic on the page belongs to Neil). I think we can agree Gaines, Kevin and Neil survived, and the long haired guy was seen walking around at the start of the next episode. Added to this, the two "dead blokeys" were seen lying still on the ground, smoking at the legs, at the start of the next episode. It's pretty clear there are only two dead bodies.--Acer4666 19:20, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Abrams?

I didn't know how to spell Ibrim, but I'm almost positive it isn't Abrams. Does anyone have a source for this name? --StBacchus 15:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

After a review of that scene, my closed-captioning notes his name as "Ibram". -Kapoli 15:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

General editing problems and discussion

What am I doing wrong for day 4? the table doesn't take up the whole screen. -CWY2190 12:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I had that same problem. Surely there's some smart way to fix it, but they way I did it was writing more text in the description box. As long as the text in the description box of at least one of the cells takes up more than one line, the table will look right. -StBacchus 18:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Aha, I fixed it. SMRT! The table wasn't set to width 100%. Anyway, it should work fine no matter how much text there is now. -StBacchus 19:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

This page is looking good... the funniest one so far is Ted Cofell: "Cause of death - punch to the heart." Ah, only Jack.

And I've lent out my Season 2 DVD, so I can't do this myself, but can someone add the guy who dies in Season 2 after Jack shoots him with a flare gun? His plane crashes and he and Nina wait for CTU's search and rescue team, but the other group gets there first to kill them... know what I mean? Anyway, if anyone is bored and wants to put that one up, that would make my day! --Kapoli 23:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it looks good. I'm definetely not done with the Season 2 or Season 3 sections, but I have been really busy trying to set up my new wikia, so I will do that within the next week. I have all the pictures I need, I just need more time in the day. - Xtreme680 00:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

So then, is there anything else you need? I figured I'd just throw 'em in when I came across 'em, but if you've already got a bunch lined up, there's no point in repeating your work. -StBacchus 09:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone put in the Season 5 kills? He killed Haas, I think he took out a couple at the natural gas plant. He took out at least 4 when Evelyn Martin meet with Henderson. There are also others I can't think of. -CWY2190 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, got Haas and the four Beresch minions Jack killed. Of course there's a boatload more this season. Also, I have no idea if that's really how you spell Ibrim. -StBacchus 16:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I've just been working on Season 2 and Season 3, so you guys can continue working on 4 and 5 if you wish, you're doing an excellent job. - Xtreme680 22:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Other stuff

I'm going to keep working on this, but I am going to need people's help in editing and discussion. For right now, what constitues a kill is that Jack does the killing. Paul Raines is not a kill, but Ryan Chappelle is. While Jack's actions may have killed Paul, he didn't mean to kill him, and he was not the person who shot him. However, Jack pulled the trigger on Ryan. If you disagree with a kill, mention it here. I will also be putting the context of the kill and pictures up over the next few days. - Xtreme680

I disagree with the take on Paul. Jack may not have meant to kill him, but "unintended and unwanted kills are also included for sake of completeness." Also, he may not have shot him, but if Jack had not interfered, Paul might have survived Conlon's shot. It took a while for him to die, so I'd say both Jack and Conlon were responsible. OneWeirdDude 23:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a pretty slippery slope. If everyone who wouldn't have died if Jack hadn't done something was considered an "unintentional kill", about half the deaths on the show would be considered his kills. For example, if Jack hadn't rigged the safe room, Bill Buchanan wouldn't be dead. If Jack hadn't told Alexis Drazen's girlfriend about him, Alexis Drazen wouldn't be dead, and so forth. Raines died because Conlon shot him. Jack didn't kill him. He just prevented him from being saved. The title says "unintended kills" not "unintended links in a causal chain leading to the prevention of a prevention of a death". (128.100.247.62 19:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC))

Wiki 24 Talk

This may be the ultimate piece of fanboyness, but I was thinking we could have a page, similar to the episode guide lists, where we list the kills Jack Bauer has had over the course of the seasons. It could be divided into sections by season, but I'd prefer it to be one full page. It could be Picture|Name|Episode|Method, which would be a great way to also link to the weapons we have articles for. There are several sites available where we can access the information, so the main work would be going through the episodes for the picture and the editing process. I'm posting this here because
1. I want to know if the administrators think it's a good idea.
2. I'm going to need some help
3. This is going to need discussion. We need to decide what constitutes a kill(Some people are going to die anyway, like Raymond O'Hara in Season 2, plus people like Ryan Chapelle, Habib Marwan, and Paul Raines might be tricky, whether Jack killed them or injured them (he doesn't exactly check their pulse every time), whether Jack killed someone or someone else did (we don't see the trajectory of every bullet). Also, we need to decide what information is relevant. Get back to me, I've done so much tweaking and so much adding of characters no one remembers, that you are probably sick of seeing my name on the recent changes list, but I'm just trying to improve the site. - Xtreme680

I love your idea. In fact, how about a complete encyclopedia of death? There are two people I know of that are keeping track of Jack's specifically: [1] and [2]. That first link goes to a forum thread that also contains a complete body count for season 5. Cinemorgue has also got quite a few. Wiki 24 has the best total list, but it could be better. I think it would be very useful to have a complete list of deadies (and not just because it will help me write fanfiction, LOL).

I would like to see one page for each season, with a table like you suggested, with each row alternating colors (say, between black and gray) to make it easier to read. I like your headings, and I like your idea of integrating the weapons pages. So maybe instead of Method, it could read Weapon - or keep Method and have that column list whether it was a murder or suicide. Since these are all going to be small columns, there could also be a Description column for those deaths that require a little 'splaining. What do you think, sirs? Xtreme680, is all this too far from your original line of thought? -StBacchus 14 April 2006

I was inspired by [3], because that page looks similar to our episode pages, but we would be able to do it better.

I had no plans to make encyclopedia of death, but now that you mention it, couldn't we have both the encyclopedia of death and the Bauer kill count? On the Bauer kill count page, we could have Method, which i think is important because sometimes Jack blows up cars or snaps peoples necks. On the encyclopedia of death, we can have Cause and Killer. On cause, we can put things like suicide, shotgun blast, broken neck, and on killer we can put who killed them. The Bauer Kill Count page can have Picture|Name|Episode|Method and the encyclopedia will bePicture|Name|Episode|Cause|Killer. As for the descriptions, that's why this setup works so well. We can describe the death in the area between pictures, just like in the episode guides. - Xtreme680

Yeah, this IS totally fanboyish. While I don't think it's an inappropriate project, I personally don't see much point to it. We've already got categories such as "Deceased characters" for stuff like that, and besides it seems to me there's way too much ambiguity to much of it, as you pointed out. But feel free to give it a shot if you want. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. --Proudhug 17:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think those are problems that we can't fix. For one, we won't call the article "Jack Bauer kill count". We'd call it, Deaths caused by Jack Bauer, or Confirmed Kills by Jack Bauer, or something to that nature. This makes it sound more official. We do have deceased character categories, but this is something to improve the quality of the articles beyond the simple category pages. As for the ambiguity, well, thats why we have discussion pages. Besides, if there is one thing that will attract new users and be a cool front page article, it will be this. - Xtreme680

For Day 3, please add to the list, Arthur Rabens (12:00pm-1:00pm). - Risico

Day 6

What about the terrorist that was shoved from the speeding train by Jack in Episode 2?

Jack didn't kill him, his own bomb did.--Vinny2 02:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

While I agree this is true, there is a practical issue of semantics as far as what "causes" a person's death. If we get TOO literal, we can make the argument that everyone that died at barrel of Jack's Gun were killed by the bullet and not Jack. I say that if Jack's direct involvement results in someone dying, Jack should be credited for the kill. In this case, I think Jack should be credited for Marwan's death. Granted Marwan cut Jack's hand to ultimately cause his own fall and death, but Jack was the one who dropped him. The same goes for Paul Raines. If Jack hadn't entered the operating room, Paul would be alive.

That's just silly. If Jack never carried out Operation Nightfall, Teri would still be alive. Should Teri be added to the list? Jack was not responsible for the terrorist dying in the subway. Jack was trying to stop him from dying. He would've died even if Jack hadn't been there. All Jack's actions did was prevent other people from dying. Just because Jack didn't prevent someone from dying doesn't mean he caused their death. --Proudhug 01:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Day 6 Kill Count

I think someone should finish it, I might even do it. Tony Almeida 24 11:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't let us stop you. I'd do it, but I don't have the DVDs. OneWeirdDude 23:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Check some description of kills

I added pictures and some comments to OSK #142 to #147.

Can you check the grammar/spelling please and fix the description if they do not match the rules/standard.

I also moved the name 'Victor' from OSK #146 to OSK #147. Beause Victor was shot at the end of Day 6 7:00pm-8:00pm but died at 3 minutes and 10 secondes of Day 6 8:00pm-9:00pm.

OSK #146 was only some unammed terrorist.

Day 2 - Alex Hewitt

Should Alex Hewitt (Day 2) be counted? Its a while since I've seen it but wasn't it Jacks shot to his leg that caused his fall from the roof - which in turn caused the head injuries that killed him? An unintended death - but should it be included for the sake of completeness? (194.221.215.245 12:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC))

That's a tough one. If I were you, I'd add it and see if anyone takes issue (this is generally how Wikis work). I believe your idea about Hewitt is a reasonable kill to count, so you will not get opposition from me. More support for your idea: the maintainer of the Bauercount pages said in one of his comments that they plan on adding Hewitt. Post it and see what happens, or respond here and I can do it for you. - Blue Rook 05:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC) _talkcontribs

DVD Prequels

Should kills from the DVD prequels be listed? Jack killed the driver of the car chasing him in the Season 5 Prequel by making the car slam into a forklift, impaling the driver. Jol123 08:52, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'd include that directly onto the page, that is, not within one of the transcluded templates. Blue Rook talk contribs 15:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Phillip Bauer

Did he kill Phillip? He did have the chance to save his life, but he didn't. Snsean11 07:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I definitely don't believe that counts for a kill. Blue Rook talk contribs 11:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Neither do I. Josh shot him, making it difficult-to-impossible to escape the bombers and the missiles destroyed the oil rig; Jack, meanwhile, tried to save Philip, but he resisted his son's efforts, similar to Sherry Palmer resisted Julia Milliken's efforts to save her husband's life. OneWeirdDude 23:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Redemption

Is Redemption part of Day 7? Then it should be changed to "Day 7". If not, I think the redundant "episode number" column should be removed. OneWeirdDude 00:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Redemption is the prequel to Day 7. I don't see what's wrong with the column? It speaks the truth, doesn't it? Blue Rook talk contribs 00:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Omar

Should Omar be added up here? I think Jack killed him before the Marines took him down, and I remember reading somewhere that the knife he threw hit him in the throat.

Ggjk 02:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I though he was hit in the chest. Besides, personally I'm not sure what to think, since the Marines seemed to have finished Omar off after Jack threw the knife. -- Matthew R Dunn 02:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Shootout at 2:00-3:00pm

How are you people dealing with Jack kills in the shootout with Dubaku's men? I counted 6 kills by Jack. Thief12 02:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Day 3 dog

Why is Joseph Walds dog not listed as a kill in this list?

That's because this is restricted to human kills, because animals are generally not considered people. OneWeirdDude 20:38, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Day 8 chart

Hi, the column on the Day 8 chart has "Season Total" column wider than it should be. OneWeirdDude 20:47, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

24 Redemption

At the beginning of the school shootout, he throws one TNT stick at a car and kills 2 Rebel soldiers, before he starts taking down the others with his Glock. I would include them but i don't know where to find the images from that scene. Could some one do that? please...

See Template talk:JackBauerKillsRedemption, we think they were just stunned. Did they move afterward? Blue Rook talk contribs 02:40, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Unseen kills and dead bodies

Once again, we see the bodies of antagonists that Jack killed, but we didn't see the actual kills occur, now in S8ep22. The other most famous incident where this occurred was Scott (Peter Kingsley sniper). Personally I just don't understand what the difficulty is about this. They should be included if there is video evidence of death, even if it happened after the actual action. Let's include all those Novakovich goons. Blue Rook talk contribs 17:54, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Serge

His life's a scream? Anyway, how come he's in Deaths on 24 but not here? And I think there's two others from that time period. OneWeirdDude 18:51, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Because he doesn't fit the rules of this page. He was killed off-screen. --proudhug 19:22, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I just noticed this too; I went and deleted the claim over in the episode guide, that he was seen getting shot. Blue Rook talk contribs 01:08, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

When I first saw the deaths on 24 and jack bauer kills section i saw that the kills are different. When i found out that Serge was killed off screen i was like "Oh so thats why he wasn't included in the on screen kills -WWE Fan

Day 2, Kill #25 (Scott the sniper)

Why is this listed as an on-screen kill? It's not actually shown.

Because it meets all 4 of the criteria for this list: 1) Jack directly caused the death, 2) video evidence is shown of the kill, 3) Scott was killed, not knocked out or whatever, and 4) it's from the show, not a novel/comic/game. Blue Rook talk contribs 21:03, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Day 5: Ibrim's explosion

Why is it said here and here that the explosion from Ibrim's vest killed another terrorist? I surely saw one fall, but he seemed to be a bit far from the explosion to be killed by it. I don't think there was any indication that proves he was killed. Thief12 02:52, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

S6 Missing kill / S5 Prequel kill

During the shootout on the oil platform, when Jack shoots the last fuel tank, it says he kills 2 people, but I watched closely and noticed that 3 men run ahead of Cheng and are definitely killed when Jack shoots the tank, menaing that a kill was missed.

I looked back at 6x24, and I found this. The last batch of baddies that come running after the second explosion, seen here.

That's 3 guys that are killed in the final explosion, not 2. Thoughts? --ASHPD24 14:07, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Is a full re-tallying of all subsequent seasons necessary, or, is this missing kill already accidentally accounted for in the prior explosions? The answer would require a careful watch of all three explosions (which I cannot do at the moment). Might you be able to check this?Blue Rook talk contribs 14:48, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, I have. Here are some more photos.

Plus the last 3 in the final photo, this should help. --ASHPD24 15:15, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I've counted the number of circles you've demonstrated (9) which corresponds to the 9 exploded guys on the OSK page currently (ignoring the first three, who were just shot down before the explosions). So this means that we merely have to rearrange the explosion kills, and it is not necessary to do a full re-tallying of all subsequent seasons, correct? Blue Rook talk contribs 17:18, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Sadly not the case. The second circle in the 3rd photo includes 2 guys. The other guy is very hard to make out, but I can make out his shadow.

But listen, I have enough practice with this page to re-tally the kills no problem. --ASHPD24 17:25, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the scene, and I'm a little confused as to where the current numbers have come from. The way I see the scene play out is as follows -

1. Jack shoots three guys from the helicopter. 2. The chopper lands, and three guys run from the right, and two from the left (picture 1 and 3 above both seem to be from this shot). I don't agree with the second circle including two guys myself? 3. Jack shoots to the right, explosion, jack shoots to the left, explosion. Men are seen flying from the explosions, but these seem to have been counted as different people to the guys running in the previous shot. 4. Three guys run round the corner (the first pic ASHPD24 uploaded), followed by Cheng. We then see the third explosion, and there are no guys except Cheng near it, but I guess we can put this down as a continuity error and assume the three guys got killed.

So that makes three guys shot, three guys killed in the first blast, two in the second, and then three in the third. Which makes 11 oil rig operatives killed by my count--Acer4666 17:37, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

To ASHPD24... Wait: it may not be necessary. Recently, I had a conversation with proudhug about the usefulness of keeping those inter-season tallies. My point was that we only need the intra-season tally, and then a sum at the bottom. We'd eliminate all the "continuing tallies" from every season. I'd want you to wait for a bit before changing all that because others may want to check these development (as Acer just did)~~, and additionally, why do the inter-season tallies if the discussion calls for their removal anyway. Read and reply here with your opinion on that issue, if you would~~. Blue Rook talk contribs 17:41, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm a dumbass, strike that. Most of that post was pertaining to the Deaths page only, not this Jack's Kills page. Still, give it a wait for more opinions and evidence. Blue Rook talk contribs 17:44, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I've prepared photos of all the individual relevant shots from the shootout. They're all in order here. I've circled and numbered the relevant guys to keep track of who is who - but I think it supports the fact that 5 guys were killed in the first two explosions, and 3 in the 3rd explosion.

(ie, look at the middle circle in picture one above, you can see the guy is in the same position as the circled guy in picture two, and the screenshots are seconds apart so it has to be the same guy).

The only point of contention as I see it is ASHPD24's claim that he has circled two people in the third photo, but I definitely can't make out shadows of more than two people on the left. I'm unsure as to which of the two circles you're talking about - they're arranged in the classic "movie credits" position where either one could be first or second, do you mean top right or bottom left? The photo I have uploaded to the photobucket site was taken at the last possible frame of that shot, and I can definitely only see one person per circle.

If no-one has any objections to these findings in the next week or so I'll change the list to reflect the changes, as well as adding Berkov to Day 8 as per Talk:Berkov.--Acer4666 14:03, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Those photos look a lot better than mine which are darker, so I don't have any objections to this one. The dark quality of my photos I must have seen another person near the bottom of the left circle.

But now that that's settled, I have another thing to bring up. Why don't we add baddie who gets a knife thrown into his throat from 4x6 as a kill and the driver from 5x0 as kills? --ASHPD24 16:18, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

The season 5 prequel kill I think has been brought up before, and I agree with it being added, the only question would be how the formatting would work, and whether it would count as a "season 5" kill or separate. The current inclusion criteria for this page say "only kills from the TV show", were the prequels ever shown on TV and do they count as part of the show? I'd vote yes, if we're including redemption.

As for the baddie in 4x06 - I presume you're referring to Omar (Day 4)? If you watch the scene frame by frame, you'll see that Jack's little knife actually hits him in the shoulder (it does look like the throat from a certain angle, but Omar clutches his shoulder as he goes down), so I don't think it could be said that Jack caused his death, and I'd say he would have probably survived had the marines not gunned him down.

I'm gonna check a few other of the hectic firefights, so if you have anymore queries now is a good time to bring them up!--Acer4666 17:53, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Should we add Marwan? True, he cut Jack's hand which ultimately led to his death, but he would've survived had Jack held on longer. It's not like Marwan rammed the knife through Jack's hand so hard that Jack had no choice to let him go. Jack technicially could've held onto Marwan. --ASHPD24 18:22, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Check out some of the discussions above. Marwan was brought up here - the way I see it, how did Marwan get into the situation that meant that without Jack hoisting him up single handedly he died? Because he threw himself off the roof. Jack tried to save him, true he may not have put in as much effort as he could have, but neither did anyone else present, so Jack isn't really responsible.--Acer4666 18:37, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Marwan was a suicide. I never had this thought you're all discussing that Jack didn't hold on enough or something. He held on probably longer than any other human on earth could have... and did you hear him scream after Marwan died? I am 98% positive that that scream is the loudest Jack has ever been throughout the entire run of the series.

Regarding the S5 Prequel kill, that was an EU non-TV kill so it doesn't go here according to the current criteria. We would have to change the criteria to insert that, and before I'd want that to happen, I'd need to see the complete list of similar kills that would consequently get added as a result (I'm sure you all can agree we don't want this page getting flooded with really silly stuff). If the criteria change allows only this S5 Preq kill, then I'd support it. Blue Rook talk contribs 20:27, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

I just felt that it was kind of both their faults. But what does screaming have to do with it?

By the way, I'm in favor of the prequel kill being added. --ASHPD24 20:54, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

If you re-watch the season 4 finale you'll remember all right away. He screamed "Noooo!" in abject rage that Marwan was dead and he was unable to interrogate him as to where the missile was headed. For all Jack and CTU knew, it could have been headed toward any city, town, fishing village, or foreign country on the map. Hell you could hear his voice over the sound of the chopper! Blue Rook talk contribs 04:58, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

But what the bloody hell is this relevant to? --ASHPD24 05:05, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

It's evidence that Jack didn't want to kill him/proof that Jack had no intention to do it. Now I already know that intentionality isn't a criteria itself, but in this instance it shows that he held on and did not drop him. He actually prolonged Marwan's life, albeit for a few useless seconds. ASHPD24 are you making the argument that Marwan is like the Gaines kill? Blue Rook talk contribs 06:18, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I see what you're saying now, but in a sense that's technicially true. It's one of thsoe things where if he let go of him instantly I wouldn't question it, but since he waited a few seconds before realizing it was a lot cause, he just gave up and let him go. --ASHPD24 06:32, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'll never believe that Jack let him go on purpose (on account of "lost cause" thoughts, revenge, or anything). If there's a moral to the show, it's "Jack Bauer is a man who never gives up". He simply was unable to physically hold Marwan anymore.

But if one makes the following argument: "because Jack's grip slipped, that is a kill albeit unintentional" then one may be on to something. Blue Rook talk contribs 07:38, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with Marwan being on the list - he threw himself off a building, Jack tried to save him and failed, there were some awful special effects, and he died. I don't think any court in the world would put any responsibility on Jack. But people like Paul Raines (Jack forced the doctors to stop working on him at gunpoint), Ted Cofell (Jack punched him in the heart, which killed him), Alex Hewitt and Ira Gaines (Jack shot them in self defence), and the other borderline cases, a court would find Jack responsible, even if in self defence or whatever.

I'm just putting this out there, but what do people think of Mila Luminović? Jack essentially used her as a human bullet shield. If the situation happened elsewhere and you substitute Drazen's men for police and Jack would be charged with murder, or manslaughter at the least. I dunno whether she should be on the list or not?

As for the season 5 prequel, it seems we just need to drop the inclusion criteria from 1 to 2 on the canon scale. So, "the death must have occurred on the TV show (including DVD prequels)" in point 4 on the list. And were they really never shown on TV?--Acer4666 09:24, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Marwan: I'd go so far as to say that even if Marwan had called Jack a bad name, causing Jack to angrily let go of him, Jack still wouldn't be responsible for Marwan's death. The fact is that Marwan died because of Marwan, not because of Jack. Let's say Tony had shot a terrorist and then Jack went over and questioned the guy while he was dying, promising to get him medical attention if he gave him the information he needs. But the guy refuses to divulge the info, so Jack walks away, leaving him to die. The kill goes to Tony, not Jack. In my opinion, whomever performs the action that initiated the cause of death is the one responsible, at least as far as this list is concerned. This isn't a court of law.

Now how does this differ from Alan Milliken? Well, since Sherry incited his heart attack, she's clearly to blame, but even if it had come on by itself, her stopping him from getting his medication still caused him to die of a heart attack, so she's responsible. As opposed to Marwan's jumping off the building which caused his death.

I also think Mila's situation is cut and dry. Jack's action didn't kill her, Victor's did. She didn't die of hostage-taking, she died of a bullet to the head. I think these deaths need to be looked at strictly as "Who was responsible for the [cause of death]?" and not complicate things by incorporating everything that happened to lead up to it.

As for the Prequels, I'm fine with excluding them since they never did air on TV. --proudhug 17:28, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Everyone talking would like to include it. It's just 1 small change, it wouldn't hurt anything. --ASHPD24 17:34, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I was under the impression that this page is meant to be congruent to Deaths on 24 which only includes deaths from the aired TV episodes. Now, this Kills page doesn't count off-screen deaths, while the Deaths one does, but I still think they should be consistent about which source material is allowed. --proudhug 17:50, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Then they could be both include that. And if it's re-tallying you're worried about, I've got everything covered in case. --ASHPD24 18:00, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not the tallying. It's that these are supposed to be deaths from the TV show "24." Technically the DVD featurettes aren't a part of the show. --proudhug 18:06, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

But if most agree that it should be added, isn't it a good idea to add it and just change the rules a little? It's not something like a huge change. --ASHPD24 18:29, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

My personal opinion on what constitutes the "TV show", are the 24 episodes of each series. So I think if we include redemption kills, we may as well include prequel ones, cos they're equal on my personal canon scale. But I know the website has a different canon scale, including redemption as part of the TV show. That's my tuppence--Acer4666 18:33, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

If we include the prequels, there's no reason not to include The Rookie on the Deaths page either. I really think these lists need to remain strictly from the TV show proper. Redemption is considered a episode of the television series, unlike the DVD special features or webisodes, ie. it would likely be aired along with the regular episodes during future reruns of the show.

And ASHPD24, remember that just because most people think something should happen, it doesn't necessarily mean that's what we should do. This wiki works on consensus, which deals with strength of arguments, not popularity of arguments.

As a compromise, I suggest we put a note at the bottom of the page, mentioning that it's a kill not included in the list (much like on Deaths on 24). That way it's here, but it's not officially here, so everyone's happy! --proudhug 18:52, April 20, 2011

(UTC)

In that case I don't really see what makes that any different from what I'm saying. I don't see why we can't add this kill simply because it wasn't on TV. And we wouldn't have to do The Rookie because it's in a different category (it's a Colonel Makepace sort of thing). --ASHPD24 19:04, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

The Season 4 Prequel and The Rookie are both mini-episodes filmed by the 24 crew which take place in the same universe and compliment the TV series, despite never having aired on TV themselves and not being required viewing. It's essentially the same category. --proudhug 19:16, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Same type, but the miniseries doesn't concern itself with the actual TV series and it's more like a sidestory. But ultimately, there's no compelling argument against not having these types of kills listed. It's a small thing and wouldn't take much effort. --ASHPD24 19:31, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'll say for balance that the prequels are distinguished from the spin-offs by this website's canon policy--Acer4666 19:33, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

The difference for me, ASHPD24, is that we're sticking to just including deaths from the TV series, and remaining consistent with the Deaths on 24 page. Since you don't see a difference yourself, does that mean you're okay with the compromise? If not, why not? --proudhug 19:41, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Because you're not understanding that those rules can be changed and we can include a wider variety. I'm not saying including everything else, but if we just change the rule to include 1 small thing, then why are you so hesitant to change that? --ASHPD24 19:59, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

So then we need to be discussing a rule change. What reasons do you have for this proposed change, other than merely to include this one kill? --proudhug 20:06, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, it would allow more kills to be included. Even if it's not in the TV series, we can include kills from the prequels, The Rookie, et. al. I don't think allowing kills from other places like books and games to be included because they don't happen in live-action, but since the prequels and Rookie series are essentially part of the TV series cannon, we should include them. --ASHPD24 20:12, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Acer4666 on the idea that the Prequels/Debrief are on par with the content that aired on TV, such as the seasons and Redemption. And I've never considered the Prequels/Debrief to be merely "equal" to The Rookie and other spin-offs. What difference does it make that they weren't aired on TV? The Rookie, Conspiracy, and other stuff makes an effort to be tied to the show, but the atmospheres, the continuity (and hell, the production budgets) never fit. The Rookie is characterized by an intentional, light-hearted goofiness (Jason Blaine ties up some Russian terrorists and leaves them with a friendly horse-riding park ranger, for god-sakes, it's like a cartoon). Whereas Prequels/Debrief clearly did occur in the 24-verse. Blue Rook talk contribs 20:43, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but you're not actually giving any reasons why it should be changed, ASHPD24. Why is allowing more kills beneficial? And why do you think of the prequels as "TV" canon when they didn't actually air on TV? Since you for some reason don't like my compromise, I have another one. What if we created an article that lists "People killed by Jack Bauer"? Then we could include the TV episodes, the movie, the prequels, all the comics and novels, and even people killed "off-season" such as Elena and Martina Drazen. --proudhug 20:46, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Are you talking about an actual page? --ASHPD24 21:11, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

A separate list article, yes. --proudhug 21:26, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Fine, but if you do that, then this kill has to be added to the current page. Consistency. --ASHPD24 21:46, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so really you have no interest in discussing this or reaching a compromise. You just want to include that kill here merely because you want to, and who cares about reasons. I feel bad for having wasted both of our time here. --proudhug 21:53, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

But you haven't offered any substantial reasons against it. Just the same "have to include other live-action media if that's the case". --ASHPD24 22:39, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, since you're not willing or able to defend your stance, I've done some research for you.

The introductory criteria on this pages currently states that the death must have occurred "on the TV show." It seems clear to me that that includes Redemption, but excludes any DVD or web shorts. Now, Xtreme680 created this page five years ago, but unfortunately he has permanently left Wiki 24, so we can't ask him his original intentions. The page was originally titled "Confirmed kills by Jack Bauer", which would seem to include every piece of media, except that a line about excluding comics and novels was present from the start. But there was the added explanation that this other media wasn't included "because there is no photographic evidence" (even though one could argue comics and video games provide "photographic evidence"). I myself later changed this line to "due to the difficulty in visually documenting them" before StBacchus removed it entirely.

Because of this evidence, it seems to me that this page was sort of created with the intention of documenting every person Jack Bauer killed, however aesthetics were more important than completeness, so only visual deaths were allowed so we could have a pretty table with pretty pictures. Personally, I think that this makes the page kind of moot. I'd rather see a page that includes every kill by Jack Bauer, not just ones from selected media, but whatever. Perhaps there's a way to incorporate the existing stuff with lists of "confirmed" kills from the comics, novels and games. --proudhug 19:33, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

What with having the british dvds, I'd never seen the season 5 prequel - so I've just watched it on youtube, and I really think this discussion is unnecessary for this article because - Jack didn't kill the guy! All he did was drive away from him, the guy's own reckless driving killed him. Jack didn't force the guy to chase him at high speed round a building site, I really don't think can be classed as a Jack kill, however the inclusion criteria works out--Acer4666 19:47, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Wow, Acer. You're a freakin' genius. We've all been so distracted with what the rules should be that we didn't even realize that this doesn't even fall within them, no matter how you slice it! Haha, thank you! --proudhug 19:58, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hold on a second. YOU said you wanted to exclude any kills that didn't happen in the 24 hour time periods but now you say you WANT to include them? Can you please make up your damned mind? You're not willing to defend your stance either. Just the same BS you've been saying. It's not evidence, it's not good reasons, and it's nothing different. --ASHPD24 19:55, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As Acer just pointed out, it's an irrelevant discussion now, but regardless it's not about "making up my mind." My mind is willing to change due to convincing reasons, which it did... once I dug for the reasons myself. I'm sorry if you're never able to budge on your opinions, regardless of what others say, but I am. My reasons are clearly stated above, I'm sorry if you missed them. --proudhug 20:04, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

No, it wasn't the driver's fault. --ASHPD24 20:01, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

So do you want to include the material from other sources or not? It doesn't have to be all from the same place, it can change. --ASHPD24 20:08, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As odd as it seems that's what the page was created for, but since Jack didn't actually kill the driver, it really doesn't matter at this point. --proudhug 20:14, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Of course you have. But you didn't care about what I had to say, did you? --ASHPD24 20:55, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

ASHPD24, the conversation feels far less hostile to me than you may be reacting against. If you take a moment read all the posts aloud (as if you were reading the dialogue of a play), you might find (like I do) that there isn't any bad blood here, just a misunderstanding of arguments.

Anyway, at this juncture, Acer's point does in fact render this conversation unnecessary. Jack did not kill that loser behind the wheel. He just made a turn. The loser also tried to make the turn. But he sucked at it, and died! Jack didn't force the guy to make the turn, it was all the driver's doing. The driver was actively pursuing Jack, and could have just as easily said "oh christ this looks dangerous" and stepped on the brakes.

(Imagine if you were being chased by some psychopath, and you swerved around a corner... the psycho tried to swerve, too, but died because he was a loser. Then, all of the sudden, the cops arrested you for murder! Wouldn't that be nuts? In this sense, don't you agree it wasn't a Jack kill?) Blue Rook talk contribs 23:31, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You make it sound very simple. If it is the psycho's fault, what if there's no evidence that says it was purely accidental? I base my opinion on the fact that the cars were too close together to make it completely the loser's fault. Mostly, yes, but what would a court think? I've always been hazy on the subject of car kills, so you could very well be right about this one. --ASHPD24 23:38, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Not sure how those hypothetical questions apply here, and the physical distance of the vehicles, it doesn't matter. They are not the case in question since courts are not (and cannot be) an aspect of the death of the driver in the Prequel. I mentioned that "arrest scenario" as a similar situation merely as a way of saying "imagine if you were accused of *killing* a man who was chasing you when all you did was flee him". If such a court did accuse you, it would be a mistrial. Similarly, Jack didn't kill this guy, and to accuse him of it/give him credit for it is to make a false statement. Blue Rook talk contribs 07:46, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

This might be a dumb question, but if a court did accuse me of such a thing, then how would it be a mistrial if they found me guilty? --ASHPD24 07:52, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

The sentence rendered would be based on falsehood. Perhaps I used the word "mistrial" in the wrong nuance, but the gist I'm getting at is: such a court would be wrong, whether or not it was discovered officially later. Blue Rook talk contribs 08:00, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well in that case, that's true. I've never been good with "car kills" but I watch it again and it defintely wasn't a ram so it seemed more like he slid into the forklift blades. --ASHPD24 17:22, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Another missed kill

Much as I am loth to say it, I think there's a missed kill in the Day 6 shootout just before Fayed is hanged. It is very easy to miss, as it isn't edited "Jack shoots - cut to man dying" like the others are, but Jack fires off some rounds and runs into cover, and then it cuts to the end of the man falling to the ground. But it's definitely a separate kill. It occurs between kills #154 and #155.

Also, besides Fayed there are 7 different guys at the warehouse, and we only have 6 on the list. They are: Anthony Martins (#153), Michael Hilow (#154), Sala Baker (#155), an as yet unidentified bearded man who is to the left of Jack in the firefight (#156), Halil (#157), Hiro Koda (#158), and the final man has curly hair and lets Fayed and Halil into the chain link section with the bomb (this is the man that has been missed). You can see his body inside the chain link section after he dies (him, Halil and Fayed are the only people in that section as the others are all outside it). I dunno if anyone else can check this out, but I thought I'd stick it on here and if there are no objections I'll do the changes--Acer4666 17:19, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

I myself noticed this too, but I always assumed the man was just diving into cover because I thought the shots were too far apart. --ASHPD24 17:35, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

But his body was seen afterwards, lying on the ground. There were no survivors of the shootout - much like Scott, the peter kingsley sniper, it is an on-screen kill I think--Acer4666 17:38, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

But it's different than Scott's kill because he was killed off camera. This guy was killed in plain view, but he was missed. Now, if you have a photo that shows the kill, then that's that. --ASHPD24 17:52, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

Ah cool, so you agree he should be on the list? Sorry I thought you were saying you didn't think he should be on because he was just diving for cover--Acer4666 17:55, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

Yes - I had never noticed the total amount of guards in the warehouse, and I had assumed this was one that was killed later, but now you've confirmed the number, I agree that the list should be changed to reflect this. --ASHPD24 18:19, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

Nice catch gentlemen! Blue Rook talk contribs 21:05, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Another, Part II

6x17 OSK Fayed final 3 — Look another one (?)

Guys, check Jack's first shooting kill in this scene, and by that I mean the one seen here. Look carefully and notice the dude in the blurry background. Now watch the scene and tell me that the background guy isn't taken down with the second shot! My question is: is this the same guy that Acer discovered above, just with a "delayed drop"? Blue Rook talk contribs 22:33, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure that's the same guy as the one I added. It's great you spotted that - (in-universe) it's as if the bullet passes through Michael Hilow and hits him! But there's no-one else around in that area, so I guess he wasn't put down immediately by the first shot and then fell a few seconds later. I think the order of kills is still right--Acer4666 22:45, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should add this better photo to the list and delete my very dark unclear one. And re-word the paragraph to include this new find--Acer4666 22:47, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm I'm watching this and I do think it's a different kill. The guy I'm linking is pretty much on the floor before the first guy drops. Then Jack takes another shot and starts ducking down, and the next thing the camera looks at is the dude you linked in the conversation above dropping down from that shot. For the entire scene I count 9 deaths total: 1 snapped neck, 7 gunshot kills in a row, then 1 hanging. Blue Rook talk contribs 05:48, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, I really think this is another case like Jerry Angelo dying twice at the airport. If they are two different guys, they are both standing in the same place and after theyve both died we see a shot of just one dead body on the ground. I'll check it again, but I think it's only 1 kill--Acer4666 07:25, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I've checked again and grabbed some pics. Before the gunfight, there is one guy standing in that position (next to the open door of the fenced off bit) - then in your pic above, that guy goes down. Then Jack shoots and ducks, and we see (the same) dude fall again in the same position, no dead body there. Then I've got some pics after that, where we see definitely just one body in that position. Although it was edited to have the same guy die twice, I don't think we should count two kills. Basically, as ASHPD24 points out above, we can't really say anything definitive about what happens in the shot of the kill that I added (it's just a load of silhouettes and blurs, ASHPD24 thought it was someone diving for cover, I say it could be a guy who isn't quite dead all over the place) - but my main argument for adding the kill was the presence of guy seen before, and the body seen afterwards. Adding your kill as a separate one nullifies both of these things, so all we are left with is a few blurry dark shapes for my kill - which I don't think is "confirmed with video evidence" as a death--Acer4666 19:34, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Before I begin, the image you took of that guy dropping is certainly a kill. Jack shoots, ducks for a moment, and a guy drops dead in the center of the screen in the next cut, complete with the camera stooping to get a good view of his fall. Adding the kill I've found doesn't nullify your original find at all.

There are a few things that make me assert that this is 2 different kills. First although I see it's possible that it's the same actor, I don't think it's irrefutable that it is the same spot on the ground, so the bodies on the floor I am considering with a grain of salt. More importantly, it appears clear to me now that it's a different character because of what Fayed was doing chronologically. What I mean is this: when Jack takes down his first two gunfire kills in rapid succession with Visible Shots #1 and #2, and the background guy I discovered is 90% on the floor, the next cut shows Fayed and Halil just beginning to approach the action. Fayed's gun is being drawn and is not pointing at any targets. A few cuts later, Jack takes Visible Shot #3, and now we see the dude you discovered. But here's the kicker, as your guy drops and the camera follows him, Fayed is on the left of the screen, already in a half-crouch, gun fully drawn, shooting. Since my kill is already on the ground before Fayed is approaching and before Jack even takes that third Visible Shot which precedes your kill, this has to be a different guy. Blue Rook talk contribs 21:25, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I think the phrase "certainly a kill" doesn't apply to about 95% of the kills on the entire list - most of them are Jack shoots then guy is seen jumping/flinching/falling. Let us not forget the large number of times this has happened and later events have shown that the person shot is not killed (Marwan, Bierko, etc). So the reason they're listed as kills is because nothing then later proves that they weren't kills.

However in this case I think the positioning of the people and the bodies gives it away. Would you like me to upload a shot-by-shot break down so we can see what I'm talking about? It seems I think they can't be different kills because of the positioning, and you think they have to be different because of the timing. However the timing can be easily explained - the guy got shot, the bullet impact knocked him down, but he then picked himself up again and got hit a second time. That is perfectly feasible. But to have someone's body disappear after they die, I don't think is.--Acer4666 21:42, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

In fact, I don't think I have to upload shots in detail, just watch Mike Doyle walk through the doorway where both these kills occur and you'll see there's only 1 body anywhere near it. No need for the grains of salt ;)--Acer4666 21:57, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Much weirder things have certainly happened: look at the disappearing guy from the Martin rescue scene in S5. (There's no need to upload anything for me, but if someone asks you can send them, off-site might be best.)

At this point we agree that it chronologically happened at two different points. I'm more amenable to the idea that it's possible this is the same idiot trying to get up, but I'm just not sure. Hm at this point I'm just hoping for a third opinion... Blue Rook talk contribs 22:01, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it's very irritating when this stuff happens (haha)! I agree the guy falling to the ground happens at different times chronologically, but the way the camera swoops around the caged area where the fight happens and shows only two bodies (his and Halil's) makes me think it would be wrong to include it in his count. I think it deserves some sort of mention - as it's an oou page, would it be ok to say in the description of the kill about how it's possible they're two different deaths, except only 1 body was seen afterwards?

Hmm, a third option...I wonder...--Acer4666 22:28, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, sorry for taking so long to answer this, but I'm undecided. There's compelling arguements for both here, and here's my rationale. It could be a separate person, even if it's the same actor, and even if the body is not explicitly shown afterwards. This has been known to happen before, it's due to different cuts and edits, but the question of whether, in universe, it's a different person is a tricky one. For this, we must go back to the arguement of what happens chronologically. If the man is shown falling down beforehand, and it's in a different position from the other guy, and the action happens too fast for him to logically rebound and go forward then it probably is 2 different guys.

Either way, this needs to get solved so I can redo the vid. I don't at all mind redoing it because I like perfection, but I need a final number. --ASHPD24 09:46, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

I think the timing fits with him falling and getting up. And it's not that the body is not explicitly shown - it's that the area in which both falls happen is explicitly shown, as well as the entire surrounding area of inside the cage, and there is only one body (other than Halil's). I don't think that's happened elsewhere - if it has let me know--Acer4666 10:42, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Missing FBI agent

As I looked on the page of Erik Stabenau, it says he was killed by Bauer. But it does to appear that he doesn't appear on the page. Is he missed? The only people I see from the episode are the doctors. --Station7 19:38, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Shot, but not killed. Jack isn't evil enough to kill innocent FBI guys. I think that's what happened? He was wearing a bulletproof vest? I don't have the episode to check--Acer4666 (talk) 19:40, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

"Jack shoots the unnamed agent in the foot" - from the episode guide--Acer4666 (talk) 19:41, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Picture on top

Do we really need that pic of Jack shooting his Uzi at Baezhev's Red Square henchmen? It's kind of pointless. Getting rid of it would add more order and clarity.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by BauerPhillip24 (talk • contribs) .

To users not logged-in, the default is for the contents to be hidden. For signed in users, the default is for the contents to be open. When they're open, there's a blank space that the picture fills nicely. When they're hidden, it did look awkward. I've added a line break after the pic now so it doesn't look as bad when the contents are hidden--Acer4666 (talk) 00:24, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Another missed kill

When Jack arrives at Cheng's building after pursuing the terrorists from CTU, he shoots the driver of the first car and it crashes. If people don't believe the guy died, watch as people leave the other doors of the crashed car but the driver's side door remains shut. If no-one objects, I'll add this soon--Acer4666 (talk) 14:17, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

Which episode? --Station7 15:20, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

Day 6: 3:00am-4:00am--Acer4666 (talk) 15:23, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

I have re-watched the episode, but can you add it soon to the page ;) ? --Station7 15:16, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

More Issues Sure to Come

You guys claimed that George Mason mentioned the dock terrorists at Drazen's place in Day 1 were killed but I seem to recall their bodies being shown after the fact at the crime scene if I recall correctly.

Also, in the updated killcount for 24: Redemption, you can clearly see two extra guys being killed by the dynamite-caused car explosion on ASH's Vimeo page.--Gunman6 (talk) 09:43, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

No bodies were seen in the aftermath of the shootout. One man other than Marko, Andre Drazen and Victor Drazen was seen shooting at the van but he wasn't seen to be harmed at all.

I don't know what the redemption issue is - the video follows this count exactly, the two dynamite kills are on it, which weren't counted in the original video by pyramidhead. Are you saying there are two more kills by the dynamite?--Acer4666 (talk) 18:04, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, here is ASH's other Vimeo channel with the finalized kills for Redemption: https://vimeo.com/30580788

As for the Day 1 dock deaths, if that's the case wouldn't they still deserve more than just a mention considering that we counted the McClennen-Forster soldiers deaths that were mentioned by Lee Castle's team during the middle of Day 4?

Yes, I know it's only on-screen kills but I always have issues with this when you can still hear the chaos going on and they're seen beforehand (just like Air Force One being shot down in Day 4 although to be fair we listed the mentioned tally that time) and some of Bauer's kills are seen after the fact but the action was off-screen.--Gunman6 (talk) 18:23, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that Redemption video presents compelling evidence for an extra two deaths from the dynamite - but I can't properly pass judgement, not having the dvd to check myself.

I think you may be confusing this page (where we require on-screen evidence, as per the article name) with Deaths on 24, where we list mentioned deaths. The mentioned McLennen-Forster commandoes were only included on the Deaths list, as well as the air force one casualties. Deaths seen after the fact like Scott (Peter Kingsley sniper) and Novakovich's bodyguards are included as there is on-screen (ie, we see their bodies) evidence of their death at the hands of Jack--Acer4666 (talk) 18:33, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

No, I know those are two entirely different charts and, yes, the bodies are on-screen and were going to count either way, I just figured that the Day 1 dock kills while a stretch in terms of no one seen after the fact as dead or actually shown gunned down, could probably be on this chart since the gun noises are heard and part of the fire-fight was seen.

I know this isn't going to mean much but I had to get my two cents out there since it just doesn't sound or feel complete without it. --Gunman6 (talk) 19:11, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Also, do we want to indicate which deaths on the Redemption movie are from the extended cut of the film? There's only like two to three of them which are briefly added but I guess that might be interesting to add. Movie-Censorshipdotcom had an article on it as well.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:15, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm certainly not in favour of changing the inclusion criteria just to add those dock kills, especially as it would result in gaps where there's no pictures, as well as ambiguity as to whether Karris's count included Alexis Drazen's body, etc.

Do you know which Redemption kills are from the extended version and which are from the TV version?--Acer4666 (talk) 00:55, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Both versions last I checked (side-by-side) were the exact same intact and the only extended ones were Bauer shooting another soldier around the corner. It's apparently just one extra kill according to this but now that I think about it, adds up. http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=4225201 As for the movie itself (not sure which version you saw), either version can be enjoyed but if you want the full experience, it's best to watch the extended creator's cut due to it filling in more detail on Jack's war days with buddy Carl and focusing more on Roger Taylor's foreshadowed murder.--Gunman6 (talk) 01:09, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, either way, I feel sort of obligated now to at least detail all the stunt men who played either Drazen's men or Juma's regime attacking the school. Interesting point on the confusing dock tally but hopefully Alexis was "recounted" ...

Anyway, last I checked, the only person who was credited for one of Victor's men was Erik Rondell and a few others but it was all mainly during the underground security station.--Gunman6 (talk) 01:18, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I started trying to tally up Drazen's men, the pictures I got were here. Tony Donno and Erik Rondell were at the prison scenes but not at the dock - the bald guy with the black goatee at the docks could be Justin Riemer, but I'm still waiting for e-mail confirmation--Acer4666 (talk) 01:54, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Explosion at Ritter building

Does this guy on the right not count as a kill, when Jack blew the C4 to enter the room? He goes down and sure looks like a death to me, but I don't see him listed here or at Deaths on 24--Acer4666 (talk) 00:56, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen that episode in a while, but it might be useful to also check if sometime later in the episode or the season, they reference that "no one survived" or "no one made it out alive" from that building. Thief12 (talk) 11:13, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well there were survivors from the building seen coming out, but I'm fairly certain Randall Archer (the guy blown up) is not seen alive during the gunfight afterwards. After the gunfight, Jack looks around at the dead bodies and says "Clear", which seems pretty definitive--Acer4666 (talk) 15:44, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

This should be re-checked by administrators, maybe we can add him too the list. --Station7 (talk) 08:33, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that was included in Pyramidhead's killcount video.--Gunman6 (talk) 09:55, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I mean on this list. --Station7 (talk) 10:43, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Station7, I know that but I was just referencing other third-party sites who tracked Bauer's killcount. We also haven't corrected the extra Dubaku men killed by the dynamite-vehicle explosion in Redemption yet either.--Gunman6 (talk) 20:49, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it seems like it's been studied enough times. Should I add it?--Gunman6 (talk) 01:46, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

I would say, go for it. --Station7 (talk) 11:43, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

This isn't still listed. ;) --Station7 (talk) 14:16, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Storefront cashier killed by Jack

This just got brought up. I don't recall anyone firing at the man and Bauer did bash him rather brutally. I don't see what the debate is, it's a pretty confirmed kill by Jack. --Gunman6 (talk) 01:44, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, every other time Jack hits someone it's a non-lethal "knock out". There was a large gun fight afterwards, and although no-one was specifically firing at the cashier but he could of just as easily been hit by the gunfire as been killed by Jack's blow.--Acer4666 (talk) 13:34, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

It's been awhile but it's obviously not both so let's problem solve. Was he still standing in front of Jack while the gunfight broke out? Or did he get knocked out prior to that by Jack's gun? Regardless of whether or not it makes any sense, we have to confirm which one is the most sound.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:06, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure. If we have a picture and evidence, then we can edit him on the list. Now he added and I'm not sure if he does belong in the list. With a picture, we do. --Station7 (talk) 23:03, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Given all the precedent of Jack's knock-outs, I don't think we can claim that Jack Bauer pistol whipped a cooperating man to death. It's extremely inconsistent. Also, except for a tiny handful of revenge killings (Haas, Henderson), Jack doesn't kill anyone unless he has to. As I have understoof this whole situation, this dude getting knocked out and the throwaway line about no one surviving, is simply a continuity error. A few questions I'm hoping you guys can help with:

I don't have my DVDs. Does anyone have the clip where it was reported that all the hostiles were dead? or at least the exact quote?
Is there any chance this dude got tagged in crossfire? or do the angles of the shootout make this impossible?
Perhaps most importantly, is there any chance Jack didn't consider this guy to be an explicit member of the foreign terrorist crew? Just a dude that was being paid off for his basement. Blue Rook (talk) 21:01, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

The discussion happened at talk:Mikali, but the headlines of what happened are: there were 5 men in the basement seen throughout all of the scenes there (Elemu, Austin Priester, Kofi Elam, Eugene Collier & Erik Betts) all of whom were seen to be killed in the shootout. Then there was the cashier upstairs who was hit by Jack. In the following episode there are two separate lines:

Jack: "Unfortunately all his men were killed during the assault"

...in a separate scene...

Renee: "Yeah, we took down six of Dubaku's men"

Having examined the angles, I now think it's impossible that the guy was hit by crossfire. From the area he was in, you have to go through a doorway, past a brick wall, turn 90 degrees and go down a flight of stairs to get to the basement, and the men shooting were then on the left behind pillars. Unless there was some sort of magic bullet I guess he wasn't hit by crossfire. In addition to Renee's line saying that they took down 6 of the men, it would seem Bauer was responsible for his death.

I think it's inconceivable that the guy survived, seeing as in the aftermath they are scrabbling for any leads on Dubaku, searching computers and through the pockets of the dead guys, and he clearly would have been a lead. Although Jack clearly didn't mean to kill the dude, it seems if you go around hitting people in the head with metal objects the occasional accident happens--Acer4666 (talk) 21:39, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, forgot that other discussion; it's very persuasive. Only thing left I can think of is: were all of Renee's and Jack's shots accounted for? If not (meaning, if one of them is firing offscreen while the camera is focused on the other) it seems conceivable that the cashier got back up and was killed offscreen during the shootout. He'd still be dead, but we'd have to be more intentionally vague about his killer and cause of death. Blue Rook (talk) 15:55, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

Just had another watch, and it seems that all of Renee and Jack's shots (which are quite distinctive pistol shots) we see them as they fire. There is generic gunfire sound FX from the baddies, but during it we mainly see the area where the guy would have to have come from if he got up again. Or, we see the baddies aiming for Jack and Jack is the only guy in the area they're firing into. Check it out [4] bear in mind that the cashier has been knocked out in a room at the top of the wooden stairs, through a door--Acer4666 (talk) 12:58, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

So what's the status now of this character? --Station7 (talk) 19:54, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

From these details, I do agree he is indeed dead. Thanks to Gunman for doing the grunt work adding him to the OSK count! I'm going to take a few minutes and add him to Deaths on 24. Blue Rook talk contribs 04:08, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

More picture featuring the same on-screen kill making in 1 picture

Is it not better too have all the pictures featuring the more murderers to keep up at 1 picture rather then 5 of more. On my own Wiki (De Rode Ridder Wiki), I also have 1 picture featuring the same kill in 1 picture, so that there aren't 10 pictures featuring the same thing.

Do you understand me? :) --Station7 (talk) 21:39, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

Nope! Can you rephrase, or point out the example you're looking at? Blue Rook talk contribs 22:22, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

I believe he means changing simultaneous kills, such as the Day 6 oil rig explosions or the Day 5 Van Nuys airport explosion, into one entry (like the Pach/Young entry) rather than repeating the entry and picture multiple times. I have no feelings either way on this; if it makes it look better go for it--Acer4666 (talk) 00:14, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes Acer4666, that's indeed what I mean. --Station7 (talk) 06:32, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

24:LAD kills by Jack Bauer

Since we got 24:LAD about to come on, you guys need to set it up, remember how many kills Jack did per episode, identify the ones who he killed and such. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:31, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

We know!! :D Don't think there will be any in the first hour, though. --Pyramidhead (talk) 22:34, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

I know it's two hour premiere of it, so keep your eyes open on this. May not happen in the first one, but the second hour is a maybe. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:38, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

Serge

As seen in Day 9: 11:00am-12:00pm, Serge is confirmed kill by Jack, however, he wasn't seen been killed by Jack on-screen. Should we put it in the BIAN section? --Station7 (talk) 08:58, May 6, 2014 (UTC) How is he confirmed when we did not see it on screen? Whos is Serge?

2 Marines

Before the Marine leader and the other Marines busted is in, it's was clearly said that during Day 9: 2:00am-3:00am, that "Jack shot 2 Marines already", implying that he killed them. They should being added to the list. Also implying that the leader of the Marine group didn't wanted more casualties. --Station7 (talk) 08:03, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

The marines were wearing body armors so they are most likely wounded, not dead. --William (talk) 08:56, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about that. But I didn't know for sure. --Station7 (talk) 09:08, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

The fact that Jack didn't kill them made up quite a huge plot point in this episode. They were also seen being treated for their injuries, very much alive--Acer4666 (talk) 13:39, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well, the fact that they weren't really much moving and weren't seen after the leader said "Jacks shot 2 Marines already" made it more harder for me to believe that they died or not.

But before Jack shot them, Jack also asked to Chloe what they were wearing and she said that had body armor. But in the world of 24, anyone can die, even when you have body armor. That's why I made this section instead of putting it on the section while I already had my doubts. --Station7 (talk) 20:50, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

I think your kills for episode 2 are incorrect as both the people that you say jack killed look like they are are seen alive being questioned by kate. Bashir the one stabbed and throat cut clearly as he talks but the other ones in the room look to be there to

Guy in explosion

Did he killed the guy in the explosion too at the gunfight with Karl Rask? We didn't saw him anymore, so I think so, but I'm not sure. --Station7 (talk) 08:00, June 3, 2014 (UTC)

Picture update

Can somebody update the pictures for Day 9? --Station7 (talk) 19:37, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

Episode/time of death

An idea for this page - a la Deaths on 24, rather than have an "episode" column and writing the time of death in italics after the description, could we not just have a time of death column and pipe a link to the correct episode? Seeing the time of death instantly tells you which episode it's from, and following the link will confirm it. Any objections to me doing this?--Acer4666 (talk) 11:09, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. --Pyramidhead (talk) 18:59, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Day 9 edit war

Battleship, why are you repeatedly undoing my edit? You're making the descriptions less informative, which is baffling, and needlessly repeating the same image/description over and over. It may have been done that way on other templates, but if it was that's something to be fixed, not mimicked. You can clearly see all five (or all three) bodies in the relevant image, so there's no reason not to limit them all to one entry. Look at Deaths on 24; it's normal to group people who died at the same time for simplicity. --Pyramidhead (talk) 18:59, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

I did that because they are like the other Jack Bauer kill templates. The numbers of each kill are one of the time, like the other Jack Bauer kill templates and they have the same images of whoever killed one at the time. I am sticking to it because every page and article should have a same order. How informative really doesn't matter. It's how those will killed it matters. You better start realizing that sometimes we have to do things in the same matter in several articles because that is why we need to get them in the same order as the previous Jack Bauer kill templates. BattleshipMan (talk) 19:07, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

But you're deliberately making certain entries harder, not easier, to understand. "The enraged Jack killed that henchman in the ship's communications tower"? Can you point me to a rule stating that every description must be awkwardly phrased and context-free? As far as repeating images, I think common sense dictates that condensing deaths that happen at the same moment, in the same frame, is better than repasting them over half the page. I see that it hasn't been done for Jack's kills very often, but again - there's plenty of precedent for it. And please don't presume to warn me that I'd "better" do anything. --Pyramidhead (talk) 19:22, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

OK firstly edit wars are not useful and it's disruptive to have a discussion via edit summaries - once an edit has been reverted once and people are still not happy, that's the time to take it to a talkpage and stop undoing edits.

Battleshipman, your argument for listing every kill separately seems to be solely based on the fact the other templates are like that. While true, this discussion needs to be about what is best for the whole page, whether it's best to list simultaneous kills in one entry or multiple duplicate ones. Do you have any arguments as to why this is a good idea, beyond the fact that the other templates do it? I agree they all need to be consistent, but what we're deciding here is what consistent standard to use on them all. Pyramidhead makes a valid point that repeating information and having the same image lots of times is needlessly repetitive, and I agree with that. I don't see any necessity for us to list every kill separately--Acer4666 (talk) 19:31, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

In fact, this has previously been discussed here and the consensus was to list multiple kills as only one entry in the table. I guess no-one got around to doing it yet--Acer4666 (talk) 19:38, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Apologies. ~~I've made my position on repetition clear above~~ Ha, that figures! I was being facetious, but is there any discussed rule saying that we should not expand the descriptions beyond "Jack did X to that guy"? The fact that he just heard about Audrey dying is the reason he suddenly mows down eight dudes in two seconds, so it doesn't seem right to just strip it out. --Pyramidhead (talk) 19:40, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

I did that because we need to be consistent with our listing in those articles. One problem of Pyramidhead's idea about how informative of those kills is that some of the information could be hard on cell phone users looking at the page and scrolling down to them and that we need to have a whatever number of henchmen involved is that we need to have like Cheng's henchman #1 rather then like Cheng henchmen (5) and later have it Cheng henchman #1 later on because it would confuse a number of readers of how a number of henchmen involved is sorted out. BattleshipMan (talk) 19:42, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Well, if we're that concerned about mobile users, the last thing we should do is take up nine rows repeating the exact same content. I'm not talking about writing an essay - just one sentence setting up why/how the kills happened. The numbering scheme is pretty arbitrary; you could just as easily start at "Cheng's henchman #9", "Cheng's henchman #10" and so on to reflect how many have already been killed. --Pyramidhead (talk) 19:46, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Based on Acer's word and that I got your attention, if we want to work on that issue, go over the other Jack Bauer kill templates and make sure the number of henchmen killed is the right order to prevent confusion so that we can have consistency on those articles. If there multiple henchmen killed and there is one other killed in separate incident, make sure you have it like Marwan's henchman #4, Cheng's henchman #9 and so on. You don't write it like #1 after multiple henchmen killed in one explosion and such, you write it like in whatever number of men are killed. Okay? Now work on those templates BattleshipMan (talk) 19:56, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Hey dude - I don't know if it's a language issue, so I apologize if that's the case, but in the future you should try not to be so demanding. Nobody's being paid to be here; it's a fan project, we're all here because we like 24 and it's fun to work on. If I "work on those templates" it will be on my own time, when I get a chance, not because you insist on it. Lighten up a little! Disagreements happen, and they can get heated, but we're all on the same team here. :) --Pyramidhead (talk) 20:10, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

No reason not to add a little context to the kills, seems to have already been done for people like Ted Cofell, Paul Raines, Christopher Henderson etc.--Acer4666 (talk) 21:49, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Another issue: I'd like to change Russian/Chinese sentry and Cheng's henchmen to ship guards or sentries or something similar because not all the men killed at and after 10:39 were Chinese henchmen. For example, this dude was clearly a Caucasian. Just change the wording to keep it simple. --William (talk) 09:47, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

Hm, you may be right. I don't know the most concise way to classify them all, though - how about "Letitcia gunman"? --Pyramidhead (talk) 00:52, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. So we go for "Letitcia sentry" and "Letitcia gunman" respectively then? --William (talk) 07:32, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Missing time of death

There are missing the time of deaths on the Day 6 and 8 templates. Could somebody fix it? --Station7 (talk) 16:37, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Look up Deaths on 24, there are time of deaths in those seasons. BattleshipMan (talk) 16:56, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Jack's kills on Cheng's ship

How Jack killed 14 henchmans if Chloe said there were only 12 in the ship? I think someone miscounted. I think he killed 11 guys (the twelfieth stayed on engine room) 177.158.148.81 06:01, July 23, 2014 (UTC)Daniel

We see him make every kill on-screen, the pictures are right here on this page. When Chloe said that there were 12 people on the ship, she was looking at a thermal scan that clearly shows at least 17, and then more run out from the control room. Chloe is the one who miscounted--Acer4666 (talk) 14:03, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Other Day 1 on-screen kills

I believe that two of these men (one who tries to get out of the way but is knocked down by the van bursting through the hideout, and the other who likely died from the impact of the van hitting the booth he's hid in) are part of the four others mentioned as being killed by Bauer at the docks (Serge is one of the two unseen kills while the other is unknown and will continue to be to this very day. I think these would be safe to add.

--Gunman6 (talk) 22:51, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

I have already had this discussion with you. The first man is not knocked down by the van, he successfully gets out of the way, you're just making that up. The other man gets out of the booth before the van hits it--Acer4666 (talk) 22:53, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

I used to think he got out of the way too but did he land safely? The other guy in the booth isn't explicitly seen getting out of the booth, only shifting around.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:00, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah he is, the booth is empty when the van goes through it. We didn't see how to the guy landed. There is no confirmation of their deaths by video evidence, so they're ineligible as per the inclusion criteria at the top of the page--Acer4666 (talk) 23:07, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a copy anymore unfortunately but having seen it various times, I don't recall one single escape from the booth.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:26, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

empty booth--Acer4666 (talk) 23:30, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Agree to disagree; he might not be explicitly seen during the entire car crash stunt but he's not seen leaving from an alternate angle.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:41, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Well, he is seen leaving, watch it and you'll see. Doesn't matter, he's not eligible for this page.--Acer4666 (talk) 23:50, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Drazens and body double

I don't understand why the Drazens and it's body double are removed. I consider it as a notable fact. By the way, the "Not Included" section doesn't say: "you can't here putting info that happened before the season".

Acer4666, it's mentioned and happened off-screen and still count as kills. Yes, it happened before season 1, but they have put there by me, because you didn't saw any of those killings. So, that's why I've put them under the section "Not Included", because it wasn't seen at all.

It's the on-screen page of Jack Bauer and off-screen kills are listed in the Not Included section. I see no reason why it's not notable. --Station7 (talk) 07:18, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

I removed it because that happened during 24: Nightfall comic, and if we put all of Jack's kills from the comics, books, games etc., the not included section will be huge. I mean, it happened 2 years prior to the seasons, so it could never be an "on-screen" kill, unlike the others in that section which are just the camera being somewhere else during the kills. Do you really want to include every one of Jack's mentioned kills from the canon in that section? Why not have a separate "Jacks kills/expanded universe" like has been done with Deaths on 24/Expanded universe?--Acer4666 (talk) 10:52, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

But it's still mentioned in the show, which is canon. Why would we remove notable information? Mentioned is mentioned. Elena Drazen, Martina Drazen and Victor Drazen's body double were all mentioned in the show. Canon is canon. --Station7 (talk) 16:46, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah everything is canon, including novels, comics and games. But OK, so are you suggesting Jack's mentioned kills from the show only in that section? I suppose that would include the Nightfall deaths, plus Abu Fayed's brother, anyone else? I guess if it's limited to that it's ok, but if a "Jacks kills/expanded universe" page is made they would be listed there as well--Acer4666 (talk) 17:22, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the expanded universe stuff doesn't actually have him killing them, just some random pilots, so I guess they wouldn't be listed there. This is contradicted by dialogue from the show, though--Acer4666 (talk) 17:23, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's actually what I was trying to say. Only kills mentioned and off-screen from the show. I wasn't even thinking about the games, comics etc. --Station7 (talk) 17:51, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Notable

Bauer has caused deaths via explosion(s) on Days 1, 5, 6, Redemption, 7 and 9 respectively. They are kills #4, 5, 102, 103, 128, 129, 130, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 188, 189, 205 and 275.

I think it's not notable. It's like in which day Jack Bauer used a gun or a different weapon. The information isn't notable. What do others think? --Station7 (talk) 23:39, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

I agree it's not notable, it's merely a long and unwieldy repetition of information already on the page--Acer4666 (talk) 00:55, January 27, 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, if one wishes to simply scroll down to what kills were caused by what cause instead of the photo evidence, anything can be notable if it's in the background notes regardless as to which is considered repetitive or not. It would be better to clarify what is or isn't notable on this page. It's really not any different than listing which of the killers he eliminated were female or what his average killing spree was per season.--Gunman6 (talk) 04:15, February 2, 2015 (UTC)

Something I thought about

During the course of the TV series, there is only one season (6) in which Jack Bauer killed a mastermind (Abu Fayed) in an even number.

Other seasons in which Jack Bauer kills (a) mastermind(s) were in season 1 (Andre and Victor Drazen), 5 (Vladimir Bierko). 7 (Benjamin Juma) and 9 (Margot Al-Harazi and Cheng Zhi). --Station7 (talk) 07:19, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

That is wild! Just shows you when the writers truly believe the villain has to exit stage right and "even" things out. --Gunman6 (talk) 17:17, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

Redemption killcount

There's a few times when the Redemption kill count at the school has been brought into question. I thought I'd put a breakdown here of what the confusion is:

One of the cars that arrives at the school parks in a clearing, and 4 men get out. These are Grant Powell, Christopher September, Monelisi Magadla and another guy.
They exit the car and September and Powell are near the car, and Magadla and the other guy are a bit further away, when Jack throws the dynamite. The long shot of the explosion (seen here) shows the near two guys (indicated with a green arrow) and the far two guys (indicated with a red arrow). In that shot, the near guys are out of sight behind the tree but the far guys are seen starting to dive away from the explosion. This shows the last frame of that shot, you can see how far Monelisi Magadla has dived (he is on the right just going off into the bushes)
Then it cuts to a closer shot of the two near guys (Christopher September and Grant Powell) diving away from the explosion and hitting the ground.
Jack then pops out, and the two far guys (Magadla and the other guy) are back on their feet, and get shot by Jack.
Then in the extended cut, we see Christopher September again back on his feet, diving behind a tree and getting shot by Jack. Grant Powell is never seen again.

It would seem that if we accept the explosion didn't kill the two far guys as they were later seen on their feet, then it also couldn't have killed christopher september (according to the extended version). If we follow the aired version, the explosion killed September and Powell, but according to the extended September survived only to be shot again by Jack. What are people's thoughts?--Acer4666 (talk) 16:19, July 23, 2015 (UTC)

Aha! I managed to find an alternate angle behind the scenes of them filming the explosion shot. If you watch, all four guys go over, but three of them get back up (with Powell staying dead on the ground). This backs up what I said above - and would mean removing a kill from the page--Acer4666 (talk) 16:41, July 23, 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like September is just playing a different character.--Gunman6 (talk) 17:33, July 23, 2015 (UTC)

But he is dressed exactly the same, and is in the same area. And you can see from the BTS footage that in the full filmed version he got up after being knocked down by the explosion and ran to the tree where his supposed "second" character appears--Acer4666 (talk) 17:53, July 23, 2015 (UTC)

And if the BTS footage isn't enough, then watching the actual episode carefully, you can see September's foot moving in response to the second explosion Jack sets off, and when he re-appears he runs past the body of Grant Powell. It's pretty conclusive that it's the same character, and he survived the explosion--Acer4666 (talk) 18:02, July 23, 2015 (UTC).

Well, they didn't dress exactly the same. The character played by September who arrived with Powell, Magadla and Thando Gqoloza didn't wear a scarf and didn't have the chain of bullets around his body when he exited the car, but the second character who was shot by Jack had both. However, the moment he was blown up he suddenly had the scarf on him, but at least he didn't have that chain of bullets, and I didn't think he went refill as we didn't see him around Youssou and I don't suppose him would get the bullets from the wreckage?

Another interesting point is, if you watch carefully when Jack popped up and shot the guys, he actually fired 3 shots toward three directions, and Thando Gqoloza didn't fall until Jack fired the second shot. This could mean that the first character played by September did survive the initial explosion, only to be shot to death by Jack, then the second character appear. --William (talk) 09:15, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

When Christopher September is blown up by Jack he does indeed have both the scarf and the chain of bullets, I'm fairly sure, so he is dressed exactly the same. And Jack did not fire 3 shots in 3 directions, he fired the first two in the same direction. That suggested extra kill you are proposing would not be on-screen and would be pretty unjustified--Acer4666 (talk) 09:47, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are wrong. Notice his shoulder. There's nothing.

First shot, second shot. I admit Jack has taken a step forward, but you can see that the first shot isn't towarding Thando Gqoloza's direction. And as I said Thando doesn't fall until the second shot is fired--William (talk) 10:28, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

No there is definitely a chain of bullets there. The light is glinting off it in some shots and he is so out of focus it is hard to see but he is definitely wearing it. In the shot you just posted his scarf is covering it on his shoulder but you can see it on his waist. There's even a BTS shot from Marci Michelle just before they blow the car. He is wearing the chain of bullets.

Jack's angle may have changed a couple of degrees, but to go from that to listing an extra kill is madness! Are you seriously suggesting adding it based on that?--Acer4666 (talk) 10:38, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be more of this if he's wearing that chain of bullets during the explosion instead of this, counting all the weather/lighting/angle factors? Sure September's wearing that chain in that BTS shot, but he can take it off at any time or any take and in the final take he is just not wearing it. Remember that when he exits the car he's not wearing either of them.

I'm suggesting that merely as an evidence of September playing two characters: first non-chain-wearing one survives the explosion and gets shot by Bauer, then second one gets shot behind the tree when Bauer's behind the wooden house. I'm not saying that we add this to the OSK page, but maybe the deaths on 24 page if we reach a consensus. --William (talk) 11:11, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

I dunno what that altered shot you posted is meant to show - the chain of bullets you drew on is going under his arm. That shot is too blurry to make out any part of his clothing. But in the clearer shots, I've indicated where you can clearly make out the bullet chain - compare this image with the chain, or your image with the chain - how else do you explain that thick dark stripe across his body? What he was wearing when the car parked is irrelevant because that was clearly filmed much earlier (they had to swap out the working car for a one to blow up). And in the BTS footage I posted at the top, you can see Christopher September in the full shot, gets blown down by the car, then gets up, then runs to the tree where we see his supposed "second character". It's the same guy, wearing the same clothes, the same character!--Acer4666 (talk) 11:42, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

I even managed to find the chain in the blurry shot you just posted - compare this image with the chain. It has ridden up his body a bit when he jumped. You can even make out the individual bullet texture where the light is glinting off it on his chest--Acer4666 (talk) 11:47, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

S6 E22 Zhou's men

When Jack, Nadia and Morris take on Zhou's men who have them hostage, Jack is struggling with Fernando Chien's character. Arnold Chon's character then shoots at Jack, who swings Chien round into the path of the bullets to protect himself, killing him. Jack definitely maneuvers Chien into the path of the bullets, so I believe he is partially responsible for the death and it should be listed here.--Acer4666 (talk) 23:55, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure of that. Although Jack was partially responsible of the death of Chien's character, Chon's character is the one who shot him dead, so I don't think that would count as Jack's kill. BattleshipMan (talk) 23:59, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

It's true they're both responsible, but this is similar to Paul Raines who was actually shot by Dave Conlon but Jack is also partially responsible (and we have him listed here). If Jack pushed someone in front of a train, would we list the train driver as the killer and not put the kill here?--Acer4666 (talk) 08:37, July 29, 2015 (UTC)

I guess that's true. I'm just a bit skeptical about it. If what you said about this being somewhat similar to Paul Raines is true, then you might be right. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:33, July 29, 2015 (UTC)

So he should be placed here? --Station7 (talk) 21:45, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I've seen this scene various times and at no time is Jack ever intentionally swerving the goon into the gunfire of the other guy to shield the impact of the gunfire, it has to be at the last second for it to count. It would count as a shared kill though you are right if it did count.--Gunman6 (talk) 21:56, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Jack swings the guy 90 degrees round from against the wall to between him and the gunman. This happens less than a second before the guy gets shot, so it couldn't be any more "last second"!--Acer4666 (talk) 21:14, August 5, 2015 (UTC)

He doesn't swing him, he hides behind him is the thing.--Gunman6 (talk) 18:10, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a decent quality copy of the scene so these pics will have to do, but as you can see, the guy has his back against the wall before Jack grabs his gun and swings him into the open where he gets killed.--Acer4666 (talk) 18:34, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Again, that's a rather indirect kill since he is not caring if the man he's fighting gets shot or not, he is merely hiding behind him while still fighting the guy. If he had in fact faced the man around while having him in a headlock, that would be a definitive body shield but right now it's mainly just a swing and not an actual shielding.

Furthermore, here are some other examples of actual movie-TV show body shielding and how it's counted.--Gunman6 (talk) 18:44, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

I can't help but feel the goalposts keep on changing here...first you said it would count if it was at the last second, and I pointed out it was at the last second, then you said it didn't count because he wasn't swung, I pointed out that he was swung, now it doesn't count because Jack didn't have him in a headlock...

If you take a look at other times Jack has used a "human shield" in 24: Mila Luminović was held at knife point by Jack as a hostage/human shield, but after the situation had calmed Victor Drazen made the calculated decision to kill her. Same thing happened with Mick - Aron Bashir considered and had one of his men kill the hostage/human shield. Those kills go to Victor Drazen and Aron Bashier, respectively. But this situation is different - Arnold Chon was not assessing the situation and making a decision to kill his fellow mercenary. He was firing at Jack, who responded by swinging the mercenary into the bullet path to kill the man (which Jack was trying to do, and Arnold Chon was not) and protect himself.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:12, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Those are different hostage scenarios but they all end the same in that they were out of Jack's control. The Chon henchman was firing madly trying desperately to kill Bauer. Jack just so happened to be standing behind the henchman and let the bullets fly before taking Chon out.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:19, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

But they didn't "just so happen" to be in those positions, Jack swung him round as you admitted above--Acer4666 (talk) 19:20, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

By this factor of adding this kill, we might as well add another indirect kill such as Omar (Day 4) who was shot & wounded by Jack and which allowed the Marines to shoot Omar to death. Just because he was there in the mess of things doesn't mean he shares the point. He was struggling with the guy and let the gunfight happen, he didn't push the henchman in front of him, that is the difference I'm getting at.

Each time I've done body counting on various movie, forum and blog sites, the shared human shield has to be directly in front of the character with the character applying a level of control. If the character just so happens to be in the middle of the gunfire, that's not counted as a "shared kill." It has to be direct and here this is the equivalent of John McClane or Ethan Hunt in Mission: Impossible fighting a random goon who was shot by another henchman and in those same exact cases, they were not counted as shared kills, only as coincidences.

Yes, I said he struggled and swung him to and fro but that is not the same as having someone in a position ready to shield them from incoming fire.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:19, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Omar was not shot by Jack. Jack threw a throwing knife into his forearm, and didn't push him into a stream of bullets - the marines took aim and killed him.

The rules you have used on other websites aren't really relevant, we're having a discussion about this page.

The thing is Jack did push the henchman in front of him. That is what I keep on saying and have illustrated with pictures. No doubt you will retort with another arbitrary rule about how Jack didn't have him in a chokehold, but the fact of the matter is, Jack did all the things you are describing for a kill to be counted according to your rules (rules which I know you will change in your next post)--Acer4666 (talk) 19:36, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, they are relevant as they are the definition and notable examples of on-screen human body shields. I didn't change the rules, I said that he swung him around all over the place, I didn't say he swung him in front of the gunfire. Using this hostility in your voice and claiming I'm going to be contradicting is just asking for unproductive arguments.

He did not push the henchman as I've said before, I said they struggled and, as you said before, the clumsy henchman took out the henchman fighting Jack. A "struggle" is not the same as a "body shield" last I checked. And if you are going to claim a link is invalid or irrelevant, then don't bother reading up on the subject in how it's done in any other movie or show.

So Jack didn't shoot Omar and knifed him, my point still remains that every other person commonly thought that Omar in Day 4 counted as a shared kill because of the editing and how it was simultaneous with the Marines firing at the same time when it was really Jack wounding him and making him a clear shot for the Marines.

Here, he made this guy a clear shot for the gunman but he was fighting him and just hiding behind him as opposed to having full control over the man and putting him in the way of the gunfire. Struggling is not the same as "full control."--Gunman6 (talk) 19:45, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

He also didn't know the gunman was coming towards him until the last minute as opposed to knowing ahead of time and putting him squarely in front of him. Again, he struggled, he did not take the man as a hostage.

Scenario #1: If a wrestler is fighting another man in an illegal fighting tournament and the crime boss who owns the ring shoots one ofh the players, would that count as a shared kill simply because they're fighting and the other just so happened to be there?

Scenario #2: If two soldiers are fighting over a silly issue and one of them sees a random shooter come up behind and shoot the other one, does that count as shared?

He is behind the guy but he doesn't have "complete control" of the situation as the gunman's bullets are out of his power after all and he isn't shoving the man in front of him, Jack was fighting him and allowed himself to be behind the guy so to not get fired upon. TAKING cover and USING someone as cover are two different things.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:51, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

You did contradict yourself: If I may quote:

"He doesn't swing him"

And your next post:

"it's mainly just a swing"

I'm not using my voice, and there is no hostility - merely exasperation that I cannot win because you keep changing this set of "rules" you have about this page. Claiming that tvtropes sets out the "definition" of what counts as a kill or not is plain wrong. We are talking about whether Jack is responsible for the death or not.

As for your comparisons with the Omar kill, or the wrestlers or soldiers - they are all different, crucially in the fact that the guy shooting is trying to kill the person who gets killed. If Jack had not thrown a knife at Omar, the marines would still have shot him down, as that's what they were there to do. Jack's action merely saved Audrey's life. And the crime boss owner and enemy soldier is trying to kill the person who got killed. However, Arnold Chon was not trying to kill his own fellow mercenary. He shot, and (this is the crucial bit) due to Jack's action of swinging Fernando Chien into the bullets, Chien died. Had Jack not done that, then Chien would not have died...there is no way Chon would have shot his own fellow mercenary. Whether Jack was swinging him to and fro or not, had full control or not, was holding him as hostage or not, knew ahead of time or not, none of it matters...as it says on the page, "unintentional kills" (such as Paul Raines) are included. The point is, Jack's action caused the guy to get hit by the bullets.--Acer4666 (talk) 20:15, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

I noted it prior to seeing this video evidence and even if he's swinging him around, he's still hiding behind the man which is different form deliberately holding him in front of a guy. Do not pretend to read a character's mind and act like that counts as evidence.

And acting like other examples of body shields are wrong because you personally disagree with them is not a sound way of debating. The guy was shooting because he saw Bauer and he happened to be behind the guy, that doesn't mean it's an unintentional kill per say as again he doesn't have control of how many clips are in this man's assault weapon. I am seeing Chien get swung around but he is still fighting Bauer and Bauer is hiding behind him which is the deal breaker.

Paul Raines is different in that is an absolute accident. A body shield can't be accidental if one is actually putting someone in the way of gunfire. A goon who has bad aiming shouldn't be a point for Bauer either. That's the other thing about body shields is that in the past they've only been counted if it was intentional.

Would you give a kill to Bauer if he looked Chinese and the other henchman looked more American and he got shot by the gunman instead? Accidents that are out of their control much all the other body shield examples you've shown and like Habib Marwan falling to his death are different from a random medical procedure for which there is a degree of control to Bauer's actions.

A mistake or unintentional kill has previously been surmised as something like the death of Alex Hewitt but that is a whole different category since that's an accidental shooting not someone standing behind a guy he's fighting while someone else takes an accidental shooting at the man Bauer's fighting.--Gunman6 (talk) 20:37, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

I am not pretending to read Jack's mind...I said it doesn't matter what he's thinking or what's going on in his mind, because the actions themselves lead to the guy's death. YOU are the one saying "He also didn't know the gunman was coming towards him until the last minute as opposed to knowing ahead of time" making definitive statements about what Jack knows and doesn't

I don't even know what you're talking about Jack looking Chinese. Jack's actions caused the guy's death. It really is as simple as that. I'm not talking about a body shield or whatever you are calling it, just the thing that Jack did ("swinging him to and fro", in your words) caused the guy to get hit by the bullets. Can you dispute that fact?--Acer4666 (talk) 20:52, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

The change in appearance is showing how Jack doesn't have control over who's shooting at what. Furthermore, swinging is always going to be questionable. Do you want to count Paul Raines sharing a kill with Bauer because he swung his head out of the way of Stevens (Day 4) so that Jack could shoot the guard?

Right now, here's what the scenes is broken down into: 1) Jack struggles with man. 2) Jack sees a gunman coming towards him and ducks behind man who he is fighting. 3) Gunman commits friendly fire. 4) Jack shoots that gunman with recently deceased's machine gun.

This is almost like if I were to award a point to some coward in a battlefield. He didn't unintentionally or deliberately commit the kill, he ducked behind the guy he was still fighting regardless of what you see in the maneuvers. You have to push someone in front of the gunfire for it to count as a shared kill.

Other cases, body shields won't count because the person is just standing behind the hostage and the villains shoot the hostage of said hero anyway. Bauer had control of the fight but he didn't have control of what bullet got placed where or if the henchman even got into the line of fire, he just duked is the thing and the so-called swinging was frantic enough that the gunman fired upon them.

Refrain from saying "Fact" especially when everyone else is iffy on this whole matter.--Gunman6 (talk) 20:58, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Jack doesn't duck, he stays still, and Fernando Chien moves (because Jack is swinging him). Just watch the scene! I showed this with pictures above. We are going in circles--Acer4666 (talk) 21:06, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

I've been rewatching this for the last hour and regardless of who's swinging who, he is still behind the henchman as opposed to shoving into what is a so-called "accidental kill." He appears to be duked because of how he is positioned behind the henchman. It's not his kill in my opinion because the henchman was already in front of Jack and the gunman appears to be firing wildly regardless of the henchman being in front. I say it's the gunman's kill and Jack is guilty of having fought the guy but doesn't get the point shared in anyway to his tally.

This is getting to be as silly as the whole "Jack did/did not contemplate suicide on LAD" which many shared the opinion of and you didn't so you can have others weigh in on this. It's not his kill regardless of where he's swinging the man or however he's hiding behind him. We didn't count any of the other body shield examples and I see no exception here.--Gunman6 (talk) 21:27, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Wait...you're saying it now doesn't count because he is behind the henchman? Why this new rule?

And I already explained how this is different to the two other "body shield" examples.--Acer4666 (talk) 21:32, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

No, if you would bother reading, I have been saying he's been ducked/positioned behind the man he is fighting the last few paragraphs and you're just going for the whole swing formula as the reason it counts as his kill. I think it's the gunman's bad aiming kill and you can keep saying it's shared because we're both interpreting it differently.

Either get someone else to discuss this because this thread is not in agreement and everyone else who's posted here is iffy. --Gunman6 (talk) 21:42, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Video of it here--Acer4666 (talk) 22:29, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

After looking at the video, Jack clearly used the guy to shot. Acer4666 is right.--Station7 (talk) 08:36, August 7, 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't see neither a lack of control in the gunman (Chon) nor much of a struggle between Jack and Chien. Jack clearly moves him in the path of the bullets as soon as he sees Chon at the end of the corridor. My call would be for a shared kill. Thief12 (talk) 00:04, August 10, 2015 (UTC)

New killcount videos for Jack Bauer in all Seasons

Hey so I made this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDfMsl-HrG8 on Youtube based on what you did here, however on the site I put it on, Allouttabubblegum.com, we don't count kills the same way you do, so there is a little difference between what's here, and what's on my video. But feel free to recheck the stuff you have here, or leave me with suggestions. I was also very helped by your songs featured in 24 page, which helped me find a relevant soundtrack for my video.

I also fked up the first time I posted, so there is one message lurking around down there which doesn't even give the good link to the video.

Just noticed ASHPD24 is on the wiki too, hi friend, we miss you. --184.161.244.142 14:49, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Talk: On-screen kills by Jack Bauer

S8E13 3 kills?

Uh oh..

Photographic evidence

Kill average

Possible mistakes

A huge THANK YOU

More questions!

Breaking the page into sections

Screen Shots

Ambiguity

Abrams?

General editing problems and discussion

Other stuff

Wiki 24 Talk

Day 6

Day 6 Kill Count

Check some description of kills

Day 2 - Alex Hewitt

DVD Prequels

Phillip Bauer

Redemption

Omar

Shootout at 2:00-3:00pm

Day 3 dog

Day 8 chart

24 Redemption

Unseen kills and dead bodies

Serge

Day 2, Kill #25 (Scott the sniper)

Day 5: Ibrim's explosion

S6 Missing kill / S5 Prequel kill

Another missed kill

Another, Part II

Missing FBI agent

Picture on top

Another missed kill

More Issues Sure to Come

Explosion at Ritter building

Storefront cashier killed by Jack

More picture featuring the same on-screen kill making in 1 picture

24:LAD kills by Jack Bauer

Serge

2 Marines

Guy in explosion

Picture update

Episode/time of death

Day 9 edit war

Missing time of death

Jack's kills on Cheng's ship

Other Day 1 on-screen kills

The Drazens and body double

Notable

Something I thought about

Redemption killcount

S6 E22 Zhou's men

New killcount videos for Jack Bauer in all Seasons